Gold Rush - What Do These Rules Mean?

[00:00:12] What is up guys, welcome to Gold Rush, a championship series companion podcast brought to you by The Run Out Podcast. I am your host Neil Barrett. Today Jackson is not with us, he is traveling, but I am joined by Coach Casey, Casey Small from Shake School Lacrosse.

[00:00:30] I think this is actually going to turn out to be pretty good because there was some drama about the WLL game that I think you might be specifically equipped to maybe help explain. I know Twitter was blowing up a bit about the call, again we'll get into it in a little bit, but I think actually I'm happy that this worked out, that you're here with us.

[00:00:59] It's a night when there's something that... Yeah, of all games. Yeah, of all games, exactly, exactly. So, first things first, we'll start with the PLL game, that was the first game of the night. The Cannons beat the Whipsnakes 34 to 21. That is the most goals scored by a single team in championship series history.

[00:01:23] They shot 61%, which I believe was also a championship series record. We'll start there. What did you think watching that game? I don't know. Have you been watching the previous nights? We haven't really talked about that as much.

[00:01:43] I do. I've been watching as much as I can. I've watched a bunch of them. I mean, I'm a big DVR person. I DVR a lot of stuff. I got all the subscriptions for everything. I try and watch everything. I think for me, just kind of wrap this game tonight. I thought it really started out really well for the Whipsnakes, which I also think kind of struggled in their Tuesday night game.

[00:02:07] So, after the Tuesday night struggle, when I first was watching the first quarter, first half, I'm like, okay, this is what you would expect from a Whipsnakes team to make adjustments. First night, you know, I won't even call them jitters because I don't think any of these guys get jitters anymore. But I just thought the first night was like a rusty night and they didn't have, you know, wasn't as quick and clean. And then I thought, okay, tonight, this is what I expected. They really fixed some things. They cleaned some stuff up.

[00:02:32] But then all of a sudden, I mean, the floodgates just opened up. And then I almost want to say like from a coaching lens, like I wonder if the first game on Tuesday, the team kind of was like a little bit surprised at how they didn't do as well as they wanted.

[00:02:49] And then they kind of came out with a little bit more of like a passion and a fire and a speed and a cleanliness to their pants and crispness. But then all of a sudden, when the game started tilting the other way, I kind of think like, and not that they're a young team either, but like, you know, these championship series and then the PLL season, like their own, they're their own individual, you know, entities.

[00:03:09] So like what you did in the PLL season kind of doesn't really matter in the championship series. They're not like fully connected. It's not like this is the next season with the next class of people. So it's almost like they had to find their, they're finding their footing on Tuesday. They didn't find it tonight. They started out fast, thought they found it, but then the cans kind of reminded them like, Hey, you haven't really found it all the way yet. And we, and we've got it going over here.

[00:03:34] So that was kind of just my takeaways. Like it was, it was like, wow, whips, they see where they come. And then all of a sudden cannons were like, no, no, no, no, no. And then, you know, the whips kind of fell back into like, ah, maybe we didn't get it yet. And then they kind of let that not doubt, but kind of let that creep back in. And it was just cannons all the way.

[00:03:50] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We talked, uh, yesterday about, um, about them that Jim Stagnita is hands down one of, you know, the probably is the best coach of the, at least the PLL era. Um, you know, some people have said he's the best pro we'll say field coach. Um, I, I don't know that I would, I would go even that far.

[00:04:19] We talked, I think yesterday was about, you know, guys like Pat Resch who have kind of, who've done it as well in the MLL done it in the NLL, you know, they, so that could be debatable, but, but at least in the PLL era, he's hands down the best coach.

[00:04:34] Um, but he, he doesn't seem to translate that to sixes very well. I don't, I don't know. He seems to, I might be reading way too much into it, but he seems to almost not really like sixes. Um, and there's, there's something he, he, he even said in the, in the post game, uh, press conference, uh, that.

[00:04:57] You know, sixes is just clearly not his game. The whips have never won a sixes game. This is, this is now, I believe their sixth, uh, game in the championship series. They've never won one. Um, and more often than not, they, they get.

[00:05:11] Kind of blown out. They are currently sitting at a negative 25 goal difference. Um, but we, we did talk about how, how maybe the day off and, uh, having an extra day to, to both rest as well as prepare for the game. You know, Boston played last night. They didn't have a whole lot of time to really didn't watch film. I'm sure they watched some film, but you know, it's a totally different thing to have a whole day to prepare for your team versus

[00:05:40] like, I got to get rest. I got to recover. I got to, I got an ice bath. I got to cool down. And then I also have to, you know, practice warm back up and try and cram in some kind of study session. Um, and it felt like, like you were saying they, the whips exploded out of the gates. They, they seem to have some better idea of what they wanted to be doing.

[00:06:04] And if Boston doesn't punch back there, right. At the time they did, they probably do keep rolling. Right. But none of these teams are not going to punch back. And so, you know, it was kind of like, you know, once, once it started again, the punching back started happening, they kind of fell back, fell back. And then, you know how it is. It's, it's two possessions, a game of runs, a small run here. And then all of a sudden the bounce off the pipe here, a big save there. And those things start to add up quickly.

[00:06:31] And I think those runs and those little, those little mistakes in the outdoor game or in field games, or even in box games where there's a little bit more strategy, slow down, um, and the pace isn't as crazy. I think you can hide those mistakes and you can come up with a save of your own, but these, these mistakes on one end turned so quickly to, uh, I forget maybe two nights ago, there was like a three point swing, you know, as a big save, a quick transition into a two point box.

[00:07:01] Um, and, and there's like, but you don't, you don't see three point swings in the field game, you know, maybe in the PLL season with the two point line, but these, these little, you know, slip ups and mishaps and saves on one end in the sixes.

[00:07:15] It just gets so quickly turns into a double triple negative the other way that sometimes these swings are faster, you know, more aggressive in the sixes game. You know, I almost, I almost wonder if like you said, like, you know, maybe the sixes just isn't his thing because you know, way there's, there's different strategy involved in sixes.

[00:07:34] But I almost want to say that there's kind of less strategy. It's different, but it's less, right? You're not really setting things down and you're not milking clock, you know, for the most part until you're at the end of a half or end of a fourth quarter, but you're not going to be sitting there milking and working possessions throughout the game. You know, as a, as a whole in the sixes, it's just so much faster. It's, it is a different monster.

[00:07:56] Yeah. Yeah. We, we, again, we talked yesterday, I think about, um, about there being less, I hadn't thought about it too much until I, until really seeing the WLL play and feeling like they were, there was so much more strategy, like apparent strategy.

[00:08:16] I'm not, I'm not saying there is no strategy. I don't think that's what you're saying, but it's, there is more of an, yeah, it's different. There, there seems to be more of an element of we're kind of setting up. These are kind of principles and stuff, but a lot of it is like letting our guys be our guys. That's what I was going to say, actually, is that you got to kind of like, you almost got to do less coaching here in a way and kind of let your players play and let them ball a little bit.

[00:08:45] Um, if you try and make it a, you know, uh, uh, a five on five half field game, like a lot of coaches will do that in the outdoor game. They'll make it a half field game. They'll say, you know, we will, we're not going to be as pushy in transition. We're going to get our subs in. We're going to get our guys in to try and make people beat a six on six or girls a seven on seven and make it that half field game. But I mean, it's hard to make it a half field game in the sixes because those, those transition explosions can happen so quick. It's unbelievable.

[00:09:14] Yeah. Yeah. And to, I mean, to your point, uh, my theory, and I I've, I've actually had this theory for about two years, but, um, you know, since I've really sort of started watching the game and that, that, that is the theory is that in sixes, a four goal lead is basically insurmountable.

[00:09:34] Even with the two point line in the PLL, because in order to make up four goals in sixes, you have to expend so much energy on both. Like you have to, you have to expend so much energy playing defense, pushing in transition, and you can, you can get one or two back relatively easily, but in order, not relatively easily, but like you can do that.

[00:10:01] But the expenditure, uh, the energy expenditure of doing that just wipes you out and almost immediately two, three more goals get piled up on you. And it's just, it's, um, I, I'm not, I can't say that no one has done it, but I have watched the world games in 2012, uh, 2022. I have watched every game of the championship series. I have watched the blue and white USA classics. Um, I have watched some of the international, uh, competitions.

[00:10:31] I don't, I can't think of a single game where I've ever seen a team overcome a, a four goal lead ever. Especially without face-offs too. Yes. A lot of times, you know, you're trying to get back. If you're in a hole, you get saves, you get stops and you have face-offs. Those are the three ways to get back in. And you're taking a major component out of there. Now there's only two ways that stop and a save. And again, I would say the goalie's job is harder in sixes. I would say, you know, a hundred percent.

[00:11:00] So now you're, you got three ways to get back in normal field games, face-offs, goalie saves and defensive stops. Well, you're taking the face-offs out of the equation. You're taking, you're making the goalie's job way harder. And I also think the defensive job is way harder because some of these rosters, which is something I'll actually mention in the, in the WLL games. But the way these rosters are constructed with so few players, like you got to decide, are we, are we a defensive focused mini group? Or are we an offensive focused group?

[00:11:29] And if you focus offense, then you're definitely leaving your defense a harder job to come out and dig out of holes. You're making it harder for your goalie. You've eliminated the face-off, but if you're a defensive group, it's like, man, we can get the stops, but now we don't have the firepower to get it done offensively. So you're right. I mean, it's, it's such a different game all while being like the same game, but it's not very different. Yeah. And again, we'll, we'll talk about it when we get into the women's game.

[00:11:55] It's, it's one of the reasons why I feel like I seeing the WLL so far, I have enjoyed the WLLs version of six is better than, than the PLLs. Version because they have some added elements of it.

[00:12:13] And again, we'll talk about it when we get to the, the, the WLL game later, but all that to say that, like you're saying that you, you are either kind of a, um, um, offensive minded roster or, or maybe we'll say a kind of a two way. You're, you're focused. You're trying to split your offense and defense, the, and the, the archers last night. And you're trying to allocate them all different ways. And if you go a half and half, I almost say like, Oh, you might not be enough of either. Right.

[00:12:41] So if you go half D like, it's just not enough. I mean, I think it's, I think it's also a very cool, unique aspect of the sixes is to see again, like, you know, it's kind of like playing Madden back in the day and you're in franchise mode where you run your franchise is different than mine. Where if you look at college lacrosse, the teams kind of follow the same. This is how you get it done. We got to have a strong face-off guy. We've got an O unit. We've got a D unit. We've got these short stick team.

[00:13:09] It's a specialization box again is all about, you know, really good units. But with the sixes, it's like, you're kind of like, you give them enough of the roster to make it a problem, but not enough to fix either problem. And I think that's the interesting, really interesting is how these rosters are constructed. And then that could really change the dynamic of what type of team you are ultimately. And then what style of play. And it's, it's so, it's so intricate. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:36] So, uh, big performers on the night. Uh, obviously TJ Malone finally showed up. I, I, I thought, you know, coming in, he was going to be their bright spot. And then he was, he was pretty quiet and in game one. And then he, uh, he showed up and showed out today. He had 10 points on six goals and four assists that a single game record. That then later in the game, Matt Campbell broke.

[00:14:03] Uh, cause Matt Campbell ended with 11 points on five goals, one, two point goal and four assists. Uh, but Matt Campbell did it almost quietly. They, they even talked about it on the broadcast. He was, he was doing it kind of within the, the flow of the game. And so. So you, you didn't think too much about it. And then suddenly you looked up and you were like, wow, he, he's just scored 10 points. He's, he's just scored 11 points. You know, whereas TJ Malone, I think was part of that kind of initial explosion.

[00:14:32] And it was like, it was like, oh, he's, he's playing like up to what we thought he would do. Um, any, anyone. Yeah. Well, I think what's interesting is both of those guys leading their way. Um, and if you look at both Campbell and if you look at both Malone, you know, their scoring isn't necessarily the goals that put them over the top. It's that they both had four assists. So you look at both of those guys, you know, they're getting it done by putting it in the net.

[00:15:01] You know, Campbell had five, uh, you know, five goals and a two pointer. So he had six goals and that, but then he had the four assists where everyone else on his team was at two and one. And then same thing with Malone is, you know, he had six goals, but then he had four assists and everybody else on the same team was at, you know, two and one, maybe three. So I think the assists for both of those guys are just a major thing that jumps off the stat sheet for me is like, there's tons of guys putting the ball in the net, but then

[00:15:28] these guys that are dishing it out at a higher rate than each other are clearly, you know, this is the one and the two for the day. And it's that four assists versus, you know, everyone else is getting four and two, three and two, three goals, two assists, four goals, two assists. But that four assist piece is, is a major, you know, bump on the, on the, on the chart, um, to really put you ahead of the game, you know, your score one or two more than everybody else. That's great. But when you throw two and three more assists than everybody else, you know, now you're just responsible for such a bigger piece of the pie.

[00:15:57] Uh, I think that's kind of what jumped off the page is both of those guys being their leaders in goals and assists. Yeah. One or the other, but both. But both. Yeah. Well, and, and, and do that point. I think, you know, the, the, the, the plan clearly for everyone playing the cannons has been make, make Asher Nolting a goal scorer. Don't slide to him. Don't, don't let him, don't let him tear you apart.

[00:16:26] If, if he scores eight goals, cool. If, as long as he's not getting a assist, which is, which is what happened last night. It's what happened last year. Uh, you know, I think last, last night, I think he had eight points, but only one of those was an assist. Um, your point, you know, getting Matt Campbell started also got Marcus Holman going Marcus Holman finished with nine points, five goals, one, two point goal. And then he had two assists. So, uh, you know, that, that, that's my golden stick pick.

[00:16:55] So, uh, I was glad to see him actually getting some stuff cause he was, he was relatively quiet last night. Um, but yeah, yeah. To your point, you know, opening that up just so much for, for both of those teams and in terms of getting the ball moving and, and getting it, uh, in and out of six, um, the only probably other player that I, I wanted to know was, was will Mark in goal. Uh, he got the start.

[00:17:21] I think Krebs had to start in game one, um, and it didn't super impress. Uh, so they went with will Mark tonight. Uh, he finished with 13 save teams only at 30%, which obviously is not great. Um, I do always have to remind myself that the average, the, the PLL average in sixes is about 40%. So, uh, you know, you're used to seeing like field statistics and you want to go like, that's maybe more around 60.

[00:17:50] So you see 30 and you're like, what the hell? Um, but that's what you were saying earlier is their job is just so much harder here. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and what's funny to me is, you know, again, that, that PLL average is 40 to 30. You, you think, okay, yeah, he didn't play very well, but I think most people were watching that game thinking he was playing really well that they just, you know, to your point earlier,

[00:18:14] they just, they weren't doing, especially as the game went on and, and things started to get more and more out of hand at defense. There were so many guys just like wide open in front of the net. Like he's not going to save them, but he did steal a few. He grabbed a few. That's what to me is important about sixes from the goalie play. I think, I think when you look at, you know, college field PLL and all that stuff with a

[00:18:41] real defense in front of you where the game's a little bit less transitioning and a little bit, I hate using the phrase cherry picking because it's not cherry picking. It's just really good outlets and really good breaks and good timing and great subbing, right? Like other people will say, Oh, I see a bunch of cherry picking. I'm like, Oh, I see like really smart play. And I also see a lot of times bad subbing on the defensive end. But I think for, you know, when you look at the big picture goalies and field game and stuff like that, like you said, it's about that safe percentage being, you know, definitely

[00:19:10] over 50 creeping towards 60. Those are the ones where in sixes, I think it's more about how many saves you get, not the same percentage. It's about how many saves you get. And then like you said, how many three or four timely robberies did you get? Timely robberies are huge. So it's not really about how many and what percentage. It's more about when and where did you get them? Did you get them to stop some runs? Did you get them in a couple of spots to help you get a run?

[00:19:37] Did you help the swing versus, you know, looking at the whole safe percentage? So again, like you almost look at the position, which this is what we say is like the goalie position is the same position as the field game, but it's just a very different way of looking at that position. And the productivity is different. And what is a really good all-star in sixes would never fly outdoor and field if you look at percentages and things like that. So I think it's about, like you said, a couple of robberies here and there is huge. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:08] You know, again, you'd probably like that percentage to be a little bit higher, meaning he's, he's maybe making some saves that he, that, you know, you would, you would think maybe, maybe, maybe putting it on him is a little bit too much, but if his percentage is higher than maybe your defense is playing a little bit better, he's seeing easier shots to save. Like I said, you know, 30% didn't feel like a lot was really on his shoulders with how many

[00:20:33] guys were just, you know, they're sliding early, almost kind of creating offense and leaving the guy, you know, right in front of the, the, the crease wide open and stuff. So, um, yeah, no, I, I, I thought, uh, he, I thought he played really well. I think most people who watched that game would think that he played really well. Uh, 13 saves is one of the higher save numbers, which I think goes to your point of like the

[00:21:01] number of saves is often a little bit more indicative of how they were playing. It's kind of an, if you made 13 saves, but you only saved 30%, it tells a story that you were getting peppered. Yep. A lot. Uh, so, so yeah, I, uh, I predicted this would be a 26, 17 game. And for, for a while, I didn't even think, you know, the whips were going to get to 20

[00:21:27] goals, which is, which is insane considering it was 15, 15 at half and not hit 20 after you hit for 15 in the first half. Uh, I was like, for a while, I thought, Oh man, my 20 to 26, 17 prediction looks pretty good. But, uh, then the cannons, the cannons kind of overshot that a little bit. Um, I don't know just before we move into the, uh, WLL game, I don't. I don't know if you heard this. Uh, it, it kind of flew under the radar a little bit.

[00:21:56] It came out during the post game, uh, press conference during, uh, the whips portion, uh, coach stagnator essentially leaked that, uh, Kyle burn lore is retiring. That is one of the reasons why that is one of the reasons why they started. Will mark, um, Jim stagnator in his post press, his post game press conference. What he, what he said was essentially that they have a goalie retiring.

[00:22:26] So they have an open spot and they are, you know, essentially auditioning for that. So that's why they, they gave will mark the start and wanted him to look. So, uh, yeah, that is, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's one of those things. I think, I think most of us who, who have heard that news were shocked in the moment, you know, like your immediate thought is like, wait, what Kyle burners retiring. But the more you, the more you kind of sit with it, you're like, no, I mean, it makes sense.

[00:22:56] He's coming off of an injury. He essentially lost his starting spot to, to Brennan Krebs. Uh, you know, I, I, I think he is good enough that I thought he would stick around for another year or two, maybe, maybe look to be like Jack Kelly was, you know, Jack Kelly tore his ACL and in 2018 and lost this spot to, to Tim Troutner, uh, in the first season of the PLL. And then, you know, ultimately came back. What was that?

[00:23:24] Two, two seasons ago, got his starting spot back and, and Tim Troutner got traded because of it. But I thought maybe there was a chance for that because I still think our burn lore is one of the best goalies out there. Um, but he is, I didn't realize he's 30, he's 32 coming off of some serious injuries. Um, and the word is that he's looking at, I don't know if he is currently coaching or if he's looking at getting into it.

[00:23:52] Um, but that's always one of those things where it's like, you know, you start getting up there. The money's probably not, not as, uh, uh, worth it as much anymore. And you start looking at other things. So, right. Yeah. It seems like something that, that makes sense again, the more you think about it. Yeah. It makes total sense. Uh, so let's, let's talk WLL.

[00:24:19] Um, for anyone who doesn't know, coach Casey is a women's lacrosse coach. Uh, I feel, I feel bad. I feel almost like I'm limiting you if I say that because you are so much more than that, but, uh, you do have a, a specific expertise in the women's game. Um, which is, which is great.

[00:24:43] Um, because you know, we're, we're, I feel like I am trying to learn it constantly. Um, and, and the WLL and this has been like a, such a specific, unique experience for me to like, be able to sit down and learn. And I was, I was saying earlier this week, like I couldn't even make predictions because like, I just don't know. I know, uh, I know a few of the, the kind of big names, but like, honestly, if you, if

[00:25:11] you told me Alex Ostholman was a defender, I'd have been like, Oh, okay, cool. Like I didn't even know, I knew who she was, but I didn't really know. And I think, and I think that's the big, really the big positive here with the WLL and the whole new format and the new management and the new ownership and the new league, because you're, let's just, let's just think about it.

[00:25:35] Like in terms of like viewership and getting people exposure, like the way this you're doing this gold rush, the podcast now covering the WLL only because it's connected with the PLL. If this was a PLL and, and the old league was still running, you probably wouldn't even cover it because it's a whole nother subscription. It's a whole nother entity. It's a whole nother format where now the way the PLL and the WLL are doing it on joint

[00:26:05] nights, even if you're not a girls lacrosse fan, the gate, the PLL game ends, you go grab a drink, go to the bathroom. You come back to WLL is on. And now you're like, I just watched sixes. Let me check out girls sixes. And now all of a sudden you're two quarters in where if we did have the two separate leagues still, the PLL game would have ended. You would have went to the bathroom. You would have gotten a snack and you came back and another sport, North Dakota state basketball would have been on and you would have never seen the girls game.

[00:26:34] So I think that this is one of the major benefits to the WLL being, you know, kind of under the PLL umbrella is that you have these joint adventures. You have the championship series going on at the same time as the championship series, where if it was the other league, you'd have the men's championship series going on and no women's pro lacrosse would be going on right now. So I think the way it's structured now is a major advantage because now we have someone

[00:27:00] like you that follows the men's game so closely and is an expert in the men's game. You can become a women's fan much quicker, faster, easier than it was when it was separated. And you'd have to go out of your way to learn that new subject of girls lacrosse. So I think this new format is amazing. I think it's awesome. I think just, just the quality is better. The, the nothing that I watched all, I've watched every women's pro league.

[00:27:27] I'm, I'm, I'm back as far as the WPLL, the, the, the AU, the athletes unlimited, the, the UWLX. Like I've watched them all. I actually have an old school hoodie from the first women's league. It's been signed by pro players from all the different pro leagues because it kept changing, changing, changing. But so I've seen it all, but the quality of the, of the game, the broadcasting I mean, these girls are coming out in the games with, you know, light shows and smoke.

[00:27:55] And I know that's, doesn't mean anything to the game, but like, you got to keep, you know, it's like anything, you got to keep your athletes happy. You got to keep your employees happy. And when they feel special, the product in the field is different. The coverage is different. I love the new, you know, that the old league wasn't a team format. I love the team format. I think we're seeing the benefit of that in sixes. Um, so I, I really think it's awesome. And I think this new format allows someone in the guys game that's traditionally rooted

[00:28:23] in the guys game to now become a quicker, faster fan of the women's game. The only drawback I see to it is like, my wife is the reason I got into girls lacrosse and she heard them call walling in the game last night. And she's like, what the heck is walling? And I was like, it's shooting space. She's like, what do you mean it's shooting space? Shooting space is shooting space. They said, no, they call it walling now. It's a penalty. She's like, wow, getting a shot. And I said, walling is shooting space.

[00:28:49] But the penalty for shooting space or walling is now a penalty, not a free position shot. But I could tell to a traditional women's lacrosse mind. She was like, wait, why did we just change shooting space to walling? How did we just change its name? But it is a little different. Well, and my understanding, and again, you are the expert. I will default to you and your wife, all of that.

[00:29:12] Well, my understanding was that they have shooting space and walling, that they both exist. They both are similar, but sort of separate things. But most of what has been called was walling. Though I think I have heard two shooting space calls as well. There was one. There was one. Or maybe. Yes.

[00:29:42] Yes. I don't remember any tonight, any shooting space. There was a few walling. Walling, yeah. And then was there one. What is it? Is it shooting space on when you follow through? Or no, because that's on the offense. That's on the offensive player. So that's dangerous. Yeah, that's a dangerous shot. Dangerous shot. And that's what Alex Coleman got called for tonight. And she got it. You get ejected for that.

[00:30:10] Well, hers was a dangerous shot. Yes. Hers was a shot. But you can also follow through and hit that when you follow through. There was one last night, I think, where a girl got hit with the stick on the follow through. And that's a penalty, not an ejection, expulsion or whatever. Yeah. So they differentiated that. But they're, I mean, again, like the kid, they don't have, I mean, look at the girl that got, you know, hit tonight, you know, Donovan. She got, I mean, there's no helmet. Like the goggles literally protect your eyeballs and your eyeballs only. Everything else is wide open.

[00:30:39] So, you know, those rules are there for safety. And you even heard it in the Holman call. You had Donovan came down in the crease. But because the person she was guarding was behind the cage, it was a foul on her. You're not allowed in the crease if you're covering someone behind the cage. So that was a foul on the defender. And then Holman hit her with the shot. So it was simultaneous, like a one and one. They both got charged with the foul.

[00:31:07] But Holman's is an expulsion foul. So she's got to go where the other one would have been a different, you know, change of possession. I know a lot of, I think, newer people, certainly people who are more fans of the men's game, you know, where obviously we don't have these kind of rules, seem to bump a lot against on that whole, on the whole situation.

[00:31:37] And somewhat in their defense, it was very bang, bang, you know, because she was on ball. She was guarding on ball. She starts moving through the crease. You're saying that's not allowed. But I saw lots of people doing that, cutting through across the front when someone, when the person they were guarding had the ball and went through X, they would cut across crease, which is fairly common in the men's game.

[00:32:04] You know, if you're, if you're, especially if you're kind of trailing the guy and he, he comes around X, it's fairly common for you to cut through. It's why we, you know, as an attack man, we, we wanted to see that. Cause the second I hit that, the second you kind of jump across, I'm going to switch back. Cause I know you got to, you know, try and follow me around and stuff. I've, I saw it several times and I thought it was a legal play.

[00:32:33] Obviously we probably all need some, some clarification on the WLL rules. But the thing that got me the most, I thought was the, the, the complaints that I heard was that a lot of people didn't seem to understand. And, and I'm, I'm, I'm not phrasing this as a question, but I am asking it as I understand it. There is an element of responsibility on the shooter in women's lacrosse.

[00:33:03] That is not prevalent in obviously men's at all. And I felt like I was explaining that to so many people on Twitter of like, you know, everyone's like, Oh, well, what's she supposed to do? Not shoot. Yes. Right away. So that's like in the women's game, uh, outdoor, that's where you would see players pump fake it and hitch to show the ref. I would have shot here if it wasn't for Neil standing in my way.

[00:33:30] And that's when the refs in the outdoor game will blow the whistle. And that's when you get awarded that shooting space. And then you get to go to the eight for your free position. So that's where that pump fake comes in. And that's that, that's kind of like that with, that with strength. Like they got to, they got to that restraint to be like, ah, I want to shoot this so bad, but I just can't because ultimately it comes back on me. And I think in the Alex Coleman situation, like it kind of was a catch, not even a full cradle and a shot.

[00:33:59] Like you said, yeah. Yeah. And, and to be honest with you, I've always said like, I'm just shocked that more girls don't get hit by more shots. Like I'm actually shocked that that's, you know, one of the first girls to really get drilled, you know, with a shot in a dangerous area of the neck and face. Like I'm, I'm baffled. Like I've always said, like, it's going to be a one really bad entry. And then people are really going to look at the rules and wonder if, you know, how do we prevent that from happening?

[00:34:29] But it is, it does ultimately, even in outdoor and sixes in the women's game, it does come down to the shooter has to make the responsible, safe decision to let it fly or not. Um, but again, that girl, she was, she was on ball behind the cage and then all of a sudden she's right in the shooting path and she was jumping. So like, you know, I think she tried to knock down the pass. So again, you're not, you're in the air. You don't have, you're not on the ground. You don't have the ability to duck out of the way. I think it was a crazy timing situation.

[00:34:58] Um, but yeah, I mean, that's why that rule can be called them because no matter what a ref could say, ultimately it's your responsibility to not let that one fly. Somebody got hit. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that was, that was kind of what I arrived to was, was the thought of like, I wish it doesn't seem like there's much leeway for, for kind of a ref's discretion. Like the rule is written. You take the shot, you hit somebody. This is the penalty.

[00:35:27] Uh, and I, and so it, it feels almost like they're, I'm sure the, the rationale is we're, we're writing it this way so that people are not hit player safety is obviously paramount. And so we're writing the rule this way to, to make it such a harsh penalty that you think of that every time you, you rear back.

[00:35:51] But it did feel like there, this was one of those situations where you wish there was some kind of rest discretion available because it felt so much like one of those things where it wasn't really anyone's fault. Like you said, he's on ball. She's, she's covering cradles to look and think and was in the middle of a move. She literally what you're kind of like a hockey one timer, the quick, quick stick we have in

[00:36:20] lacrosse, but it was a quick, powerful stick because you know, we're just, they're way more skilled than they used to be. So that little quick stick has some zip on it. And you know, I think she got hit like right around here. It could be a soft shot. That hurts. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Like, you know, that's, and, and they did a little bit, something interesting with the sixes where it's, if you get, if you hit a defender above the knee, right. Where in outdoor, you could hit someone in their pinky toe. If it touches them, you're out.

[00:36:49] So that's kind of like one of those things where I think the sixes and the new rules is something that they tried to, even though it's, you know, you're from your foot to your knee, they're saying is safe. But again, like those are probably incidental ones, a high to low shot or a low to low release. They're less dangerous. And now, but I think that's the way of the PLL, which we've seen how they test rules out and they're pushing the rules and they're trying different things in the PLL and they try different

[00:37:18] things in the past. I think in past championship series, they've tried some different rules that didn't transfer over. So we're going to go from the knee up and now, you know, maybe this is something that after the championship series, they go to something more along the lines of what you said, like, Hey, we're going to stick with the knee up is expellable, but also reviewable.

[00:37:44] Should there be a bang, bang, complete accident, you know, no, no way to avoid it type situation. So I think again, the WLL or the championship series is a nice little way for the PLL to give their ideas and to work with the WLL minds and the women's minds and maybe start to kind of mesh some things that sometimes like everything else could be a horrible rule change and it gets changed back next year. Or, Hey, we're onto something.

[00:38:14] Let's keep tweaking until we find it. So I think that's where, again, the union of the PLL and the WLL can be super beneficial because, you know, as from a, from a women's coaching standpoint, a guy in the women's game, there's a lot of super archaic things. I mean, very archaic in general. So, you know, and if I'm the one that's trying to voice it, you know, around me, they're going to be like, Oh, you're crazy. But, you know, maybe the PLL who owns the WLL and is helping is maybe that's the bridge

[00:38:42] that ultimately leads to some really good change or some experiments that don't work out. And, you know, again, I think the PLL has always done a good job of, you know, saying, Hey, that didn't work. That's not the right move. Change it back or fix this or change that. I think they're, you know, they, I don't think they make silly rule changes and let them ride out for very long. Some people might argue the face off rules are a little bit and they just keep riding those. But yes, generally, I think I'd agree.

[00:39:11] Face off is always weird, man. You have the world trying to get rid of it and you got the other half trying to reinvent it. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Before we get just into the specifics of the game, I'm curious what we're talking about these, these penalties and stuff. I'm curious coming from the world that you come in, what you have thought of kind of

[00:39:33] the overall play structure of play, I guess is more about what it, what I'm asking in terms of penalties flow. So I know, I think it was, I think it was better tonight and maybe that's part of it is, is, you know, refs are learning, you know, this is new to them as well. Uh, I know, especially that first night, that was rough.

[00:39:59] It was, it was rough and it felt like, it felt like there was so much happening that was getting called little ticky tack again, player safety is, is an even higher importance in the women's game because they don't have the equipment and protection that the men do. Uh, and I, and I understand that and I'm for that, but you know, there were, there was a lot of

[00:40:24] interrupting kind of the flow of the game for, for kind of nothingness, you know, off ball or, or, you know, two, two girls ran into each other, you know, just, just kind of insignificant stuff flowing. I'm, I'm wondering again, coming from, you know, I, I, I'm not, obviously I'm not super into the women's game, but I remember when, when, uh, Oh, what's it called? Free play. Yep. Is that what I did? That was just free movement. Free movement was huge. Free movement.

[00:40:54] Yes. That was huge. That was not that long. No brainer. Five years ago. Yeah. That was a no brainer. And that was, I couldn't believe like the whole idea of, you know, placing your sticks on the ground and freeze don't move is wild. Um, free movement changed the women's game monumentally. That was probably one of the biggest, most influential rule changes of all time for the women's game. Um, when, when was that? That was, it wasn't that long ago.

[00:41:23] Six, maybe six years ago, seven years. I don't think it was longer than that at the time really flies. I, I really, I think like a more recent thing, maybe six or seven time does. I got in, I got really heavily into like the lacrosse kind of social media space in 2016. And I know it's been since I did it. Like, I remember when I was like, 18. Okay. So yeah. Right around there.

[00:41:53] You're about right. Yeah. Um, so yeah, again, all that to say, what, what have you kind of overall? So I think it's, I think the women's game is tougher to officiate. Um, I think they have a really tough job because what I, what I notice is, um, in the beginning of the games, I'm not saying it's reffed one way or the one side or the other. I think it's just reffed a certain way in the beginning of the game.

[00:42:19] But I think towards the end of game, you start to see things that were, or weren't called earlier, but it's the same thing. And what I, what I do think is as the game intensifies throughout the game, I think some of the pushes get a little more intense from the defense. And then you start to see some of the offensive players kind of like losing the ball. And I think you see them kind of given the refs, you know, kind of like a look like that's a, that's a foul.

[00:42:46] And I, and I think it's a, it's not just the referees either. You got to remember these girls are coming from the only other game they know is college women's lacrosse, which can be real ticky tack or real subjective. So when they come here, the WLL, in my opinion, wants to let them play a little bit, but their whole life, this stuff never flies. Like all this hand play checking on their hands is brand new to these women.

[00:43:13] So I think in the beginning of the games, they let them get away with a lot. But I also think in the beginning of the game, the pushes are a little lighter and the hand checks are a little lighter, but as the game intensifies, those hand checks get a little bit slappier, a little bit more aggressive and the pushes become a little bit more aggressive and the reaching and the slashing becomes a little bit more aggressive. And now all of a sudden the referees are kind of getting these looks and the game's getting intense and they know that that looks like a foul.

[00:43:41] And now all of a sudden they're starting to like almost tighten up on what they're calling, but after it's already intensified. Um, so I think, I think, you know, and again, none of those pushes would be called in the men's game. None of those, they call a lot of holds. You'll see in the WL, a lot of holds, but really none of those would be a hold in the men's game. What it is, is they're checking down on the stick or the hands, and then they stay down and in their hands and in their sticks.

[00:44:09] So now it becomes a hold where in the girls game, they want to check in a, in a, in a quick pullback. They want the checks to be short and sweet that you can't wear in the guys game. We would clamp on someone's hands and then stay in their gloves. Like you hear it all the time with men's coaching, getting their hands, work their hands, stay in their gloves. Well, technically that same phrase in the women's games is being called a hold. So you're, you, you see things like that, where I do think it's harder to ref the women's game because in that regard, you know, we'd said the shooting, the dangerous

[00:44:39] shot, like there's no, there's no gray area where, where in this, there's a lot of gray area on what's a hole and what's a clean check. What's a slash. What's not a slash. What's a push. And what's not a push. And what's there's a lot of gray in the women's game. So I do think you're, you're trying to let them play. You're also trying to keep their hands, which are ungloved safe and the players, which are unpadded safe. But that's a sliding scale.

[00:45:06] Letting them play probably leans more towards dangerous play. And then like calling too much leans towards, well, I'm stopping this game every two seconds. So I do think the women's game, the women's ref, and even the women's players have just the, they are, they're all walking their own fine line. Defenders are walking a fine line. Shooters are walking a fine line. Should I let it fly? Or should I worry about safety? And then you've got these refs walking fine lines. So anytime someone gets off the fine line, all of a sudden you got, you know, you got

[00:45:35] upheaval and, and, and, and disgruntled people. And I saw it tonight. You could see some players starting to look at the ref after what they thought were fouls and give them a look. And then the next time down, all of a sudden that foul's called like, you know, I, I get it. I think it's just, I think it's a more difficult job and I don't know that they'll ever get it right. And this is where the guys will say, put them in pads and, and make it easier, but that's not the women's game. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a slippery slope, man. It is for the women's game.

[00:46:05] It is slippery. Do we, do we have time to get into that? Oh yeah. I'm curious. I got you. Okay. All right. I'm, I'm curious your perspective on that conversation. I know we have a game to get to, but I'm curious your perspective on, on that conversation, being a women's coach, having, having been a women's coach for a good while now, you know,

[00:46:31] having seen the game transition from, you know, like we talked about the pre-free movement, uh, era and, and, and moving on. Um, and, and, and the idea of, you know, walking that line between player safety versus keeping the, the, the women's game, the women's game. I know, I know so many women who don't want pads.

[00:46:59] Like they, they want to play women's lacrosse. They love women's lacrosse. I think you would kill the women's sport. If you, if you put high schoolers in full pads, I think you'd kill the women's sport. I think, and it's even on a more granular level. I don't know that. I don't know that, um, like my high school players, for instance, I don't know that they would get excited to be fully padded up. I don't, I just don't, I don't think that that the game could stay the same.

[00:47:26] You could have all the same rules, but they're padded for safety. Um, I just, I don't see the girls rushing to putting on shoulder pads, Noah pads, and being excited about it. Now you have kids that play box and that's awesome, but that's like box lacrosse. They're playing women's box lacrosse, you know, uh, just like same thing. You got women that play ice hockey, but you don't have tons of women flocking to ice hockey. And I don't know that it's because of the pads, but I think there is something to the

[00:47:53] women's game where my girls feel like warriors putting on just their goggles, just their ponytail and saying, let's get after it. So I think there's kind of that. I think if you started putting helmets on them and pads, I think you kind of take, you take the look away from the women's game. And I think that would go far. I think you'd, I think enrollment would drop to be honest. I've thought about this for years. I think if you said, well, women's lacrosse is just men's lacrosse played by women. I think enrollment would fall through the floor.

[00:48:23] I think, I think it would kill the whole game in general. Um, but I do think like you said, safety is safety, right? And it's like, how can I take into account, you know, how does this look and how cool is it when I'm talking about safety? Safety doesn't have a coolness factor to it. It doesn't have a look to it. Safety is safety. Um, and the argument always comes down to, you know, referees need to become more educated, need to be more trained. They need to be more consistent.

[00:48:52] Um, and then the other argument will be coaches need to coach better technique, better safe play, all of that. Um, but I think where the issue is just like any other sport, you know, there's not a bunch of knowledgeable women's lacrosse coaches sitting around volunteering their time at the youth level, so on and so forth. So if you have volunteer parents that don't know the women's game, how can they, you're asking them a lot.

[00:49:18] You're asking them to become an expert of the game, put in as many hours as I do so that they can then teach proper safe technique. Um, and that's a lot because sometimes they're just trying to manage a team and make sure their kid has a team to play on and they volunteer. So it's, it's kind of both ways. You want refereeing to be more consistent, better trained again, same thing. We don't have a ton of referees just sitting around referee shortage is a problem with every sport. So I think it's going to be constantly a point of emphasis.

[00:49:44] I think it's going to constantly be, you know, something that is always being worked on. I don't know that we'll ever reach it. Um, I think you put it, I think ultimately we have a lot of responsibility in the girls game from the player to make safe plays, safe decisions, coaches to teach that and referees to ref that where in the guys game, I don't know that my players have to think about safety. If I shoot and you get hit, Hey, sucks for you, buddy.

[00:50:13] Guess you won't get in front of my shot again. And the next one's going in and I'll bomb away all day. You know what I mean? And then same thing. Like, you know, I've always, you got deep holes that a lot of times aren't really that athletic. They're just very aggressive and hacks. So they're not carried about safety. And then ultimately the rules are, even though they're a little bit gray, they're a little bit more. Yes. That slash hit his helmet. So it's a slash, but you know how it is in the men's game. You got, you're yelling slash slash.

[00:50:43] And the refs are like, that's a brush. That's a brush. You know what I mean? Like, so there's, there's that, but again, if you brush my face, I didn't get hurt. You brushed my face mask where if you brush my face in the women's game, I probably have a bloody lip. So it's, it's, it's definitely, it's an ongoing thing. I mean, I have a mandatory rules meeting coming up next week and they're going to tell me all the point of emphasis rules. And then as soon as we get the three games into the season, that point of emphasis isn't being emphasized.

[00:51:12] And I'm out there yelling point of emphasis, vertical stick heart. And they're just looking at me like, go ahead and say point of emphasis one more time. And I get you a card and get you out of here. But I'm like, ah, we had to sit in that mandatory meeting and you told us what the point of emphasis was, but we're not calling it today. So it does get gray fast in the women's game. Yeah. Yeah. And to clarify, I'm, I'm not saying that there are no women who want to be padded up. I just, I definitely saw women's box is popping, man.

[00:51:41] I have a big believer in women's box. I think the women's box game can change your game from a women's perspective and make you a way better player. But I mean, you look at Charlotte North was on the field tonight. She, she played in the world box lacrosse championship. She was one of the kind of the stars of that gold medal winning team. And I don't know that she wants women's lacrosse to become padded up, you know, men's lacrosse either, even though she still plays that maybe she does. I can't speak for it.

[00:52:11] And at the same time, think about this. Charlotte is our, is the women's game's best outside shooter. She's the most lethal outside shooter. She also has the most powerful shot and can cause the most bodily harm with her shot. But if you watch, for instance, at her game tonight, she's very smart about when and where she pulls the trigger. I've, I've always said, Charlotte hits somebody. We're going to have a major discussion about rules and safety, but Charlotte, I've never

[00:52:39] seen her actually pull like a questionable shot. So that's it. That goes to the point of, you can put the emphasis on athletes to be responsible with their shooting. And they can be because Charlotte's doing it. And then you go to the Holman thing. I don't think that was an irresponsible shot. I think that was a, you know, for lack of a better terms, is a perfect alignment of bad things that happened at the exact same time. But I don't think that was a dangerous shot. I don't think it was dangerous shot.

[00:53:08] I think it was wrong place, wrong time accident. Right. But unfortunately, imagine if you put the phrase wrong place, wrong time accident in the rule book, we'd have all hell breaking moves. Right. Right. That's way too wild. I'm so glad that you brought up Charlotte North because that was where my idea of, again, you know, it's not like I've read a women's rule book, but I was watching Charlotte North last night and again tonight.

[00:53:35] And I watched how many times he pulled up for a shot that, that in a men's game, she would have taken without hesitation. And she, she pumped. I watched her one time do a full jump, like, like she was going to take her jump shot and pull it down and keep it.

[00:53:58] And it was like, yes, clearly there is an emphasis on the shooter having, being in control and, and not taking a shot when there is someone in the way. And even the follow through, imagine because Charlotte sometimes has the window to release the ball, but she, I think sometimes she keeps it because even if I release this ball, I can't follow through. I'm going to hit this girl on the hands on my follow through. So again, she's a very good example. She is very smart about her shots.

[00:54:26] She's not out there shooting dangerously. And if anything, she should have the most responsibility because her shot can cause the most damage. So she's very responsible with her shooting selections. Very responsible. One more, one more rules point before we, I swear we are going to talk about this game.

[00:54:51] Last night, we realized that in the WLL, there is no two point shot that that line may not may as well not be there. Right. And obviously, I think it's pretty obvious. The thought there is not to incentivize the distance shots. My question though, is we didn't really de-incentivize those shots.

[00:55:19] Allie, I know you, you and Allie, uh, for years, he was ripping that last night. He got twos. Right. And so my, my thing was you didn't really, uh, you, you haven't really discouraged people from shooting them. You have just taken away the reward of being able to shoot them. Because they're still shooting the two and they're, and they're, and again, those are Allie didn't shoot irresponsibly from bomb the arc. They're responsible lane.

[00:55:48] So you should get the two. I think what they, uh, I think the idea of de-incentivizing the deep shot was a safety decision, but I think where they also helped themselves out and maybe they could let the two fly, let the two point arc be real. Because what I like about the women, the P the WLL rules is if you are five on five, you are not allowed to play zone. I think that's where the dangerous comes in because now think about it.

[00:56:17] If you want, let's say the two point shot was a part of the women's game and you wanted to use that as part of your strategy. Like just look at the game tonight. Uh, you know, charm could have used a tour, a tour at the end that could have been part of their game plan in the last three minutes. Hey, we're gonna have to set up our two point shooting play. But what I like about this is if the two point is part of the game and it's part of your strategy

[00:56:41] in the women's game, because they're making you play man to man, you can design that look in a way to allow your shooter to have a clean lane. Don't have anyone at X, have them push some, make the motion so that when the ball gets to Charlotte for the two, the other people have cleared through. And now by rules, the defenders should have come with you, which would give you an open lane. But if you let them stay in zone, which they don't allow you to do, that's when you can run that play.

[00:57:11] And now Charlotte has to shoot into someone who's sitting in a zone where in the men's game, we can just shoot that. And we don't care if you get hit. So I think because they made the man to man rule, that's also helping safety, right? Because no offensive player would be standing in front of Charlotte is winding up for two. Therefore, no defensive player should be in that spot. So by making them play man to man, I think they've made the game safer by forcing them to play man to man.

[00:57:38] Because now you can clear lanes to shoot the two ball, which like you said, Charlotte's shooting from two. There was a couple girls shot from two. And the interesting thing about that is I'm pretty sure that I almost want to say in the unleashed event, that all-star event that the PLL hosted with the women's, I thought they allowed two-pointers in that game. Because I'm pretty sure I saw like Megan Kinna drop a two bomb from deep.

[00:58:06] So it's interesting that they allowed it. I think they allowed it in that unleashed game, but then they don't allow it in the WLL rules. But I'm with you. They're shooting the two. They should get the two. They weren't dangerous two balls that went in. They were safe two balls that went in. So there should be two. And I think the reason that you're seeing those safe two balls and those safe two-point shots is because of the man-to-man rule, which forces you to follow and play man-to-man, which creates safer lanes.

[00:58:36] The zone is where I think dangerous lanes are. People popping in and out of the zone. You don't see the backside zone coming into check middle and you're releasing a shot. You didn't see her because she shouldn't have been there, but it was a good zone check-in. I think the man-to-man rule is a safety rule as well, even though they probably, I don't know if they meant it to be a safety rule, but I think by forcing them to play man-to-man, player-to-player and not stay in a 5-1-5 zone, I think they have made the game safer.

[00:59:02] Therefore, like you said, and again, this is what's nice about the championship series. I'm hoping somebody's job is to go look at all shots shot behind the arc. And if there's 10 shots in the end of this championship series that were shot beyond the arc and they were all safe and they should have been twos, I hope they say, yeah, we looked at the data. There was 10 shots behind the arc in the February championship series and all were safe. Let's give them the two-pointer. We've looked at the data. We've seen it.

[00:59:30] The man-to-man rule helps it and let it go. So I'm hoping that's what they're doing with this championship series is really digging into the women's side and saying, if we're going to be partnered with the women's game, let's make sure we're looking at this in depth. Because I think they've figured out men's sixes. I think they've figured out PLL for the most part. We can go, you know, you said we go back and forth about face-offs all the time. But for the most part, they've figured out men's sixes and they've figured out the PLL league.

[00:59:57] So I think they should make sure they figure out the women's game and the women's sixes and make sure they figure that out and make the tweaks now in the next year or so so that they have a really good product going forward. They can put all the steam behind it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I didn't even think about the zone rule. Oh, yeah. The zone is the danger. That affects. Yeah. But, you know, because my thought was still, you know, they still have dangerous shot rules. They still have walling.

[01:00:26] They still have, you know, shooting space. Like the idea that a 13-yard shot is so much more dangerous that we need to de-incentivize it. Well, I mean, Allie had, I think, two shots from like 12 and a half. Like she's like, you know, her front foot was just across the line. And it's like, you know, we're still taking these shots.

[01:00:52] All you've done is taking away the reward for being good at that shot. Right, right, right. So with that being said, let's actually talk about the game. Kind of close game for a while, a little bit back and forth, but ultimately the guard kind of pull away and win 18 to 13. One of the things, again, like we talked about way, way back when we first started that I have

[01:01:19] loved about watching the WLL so far has been. They seem to be, there seems to be so much more of a tactical game. You know, we talked about the PLL. Again, I know there are tactics. I'm not saying they're not coaching, but a lot of it seems to be like, okay, we, these are kind of the principles. These are what we are ideas and stuff are, but we're just going to kind of let you guys go play.

[01:01:43] And the women seem to really have patterns of play and like real strong thought processes. We talked earlier this week about how they seem to almost, almost box like in, in offensive and defensive substituting, which you don't see, you, you see here and there, maybe, you know, Rambo ain't, ain't necessarily busting back on defense.

[01:02:11] He's running off, but it's not, it's not the whole team where, where it often is, you know, barring a, barring a free save and a goalie pushing it immediately. Obviously they'll kind of, they'll kind of stay on for that. But any, any time that they can, they're doing almost whole line substitutions. And then the big one for this game was there was clearly a concern.

[01:02:32] Alex Osholman at X, you know, looking to, to feed cutters and stuff, which is not really a tactic we've, we've seen. Obviously the, the WLL is kind of two games into its existence, but it's not really a thing we've seen in sixes generally to the point where I have seen people say, you know, get rid of the space behind the goal because, you know, people aren't using it. And so that, that was a big one.

[01:03:02] And she ended up with, with five points on a, on a goal and, and four assists and, and missed a good chunk of that game. Yep. So I think, I think the reason you see that more in the girls game is because traditionally up until again, recently, like here's another crazy rule changes up until a couple of years ago, women's defenders could not go through the crease.

[01:03:28] So traditionally as a women's defender, you could not step in the crease and you also traditionally don't play behind the cage. You don't go behind. Now, once they started letting you cut through the crease, colleges started to play behind the cage, but traditional women's lacrosse in the past, you basically got behind the cage to X and it was like free home base. Defenders just stayed up and around the top of the crease and let, let you sit back there all the time.

[01:03:56] So on my team, my high school team, we call it, we literally call it the Tom Brady. If you let Tom Brady sit in a clean pocket for seven seconds, eight seconds, nine seconds, 10 seconds, he will find somebody open. Yeah. You're never going to let Tom Brady sit in a clean pocket, but in the traditional women's game, if an offensive player got behind the cage, you let them sit there forever until they found the cutter. Now we go behind and pressure that person. But I think in the women's WLL game, there's a little bit more of a tendency.

[01:04:25] Sometimes people get behind there. Like if you notice, Alex Osholman was back there by herself, casually finding feeders because now it's like, I don't want to go this way. I'll flush her because they're not as comfortable going behind where we've grown up that way, you know, finding way I go this way. Goalie plays me that way. We trap and then I get on and we play from there. Where, so I think you notice when Alex would get to X, a lot of times she had no pressure and she got to sit there and be Tom Brady in a pocket with no pressure.

[01:04:54] But I do, I agree with you. You don't see that much in the guys game because usually a defender is attached on you before you get to X and they don't stop. They stay on you. Right. In the girls game, we have a little bit more of a tendency to slap off at X and play in front of the cage or give you that free space. So I think that is a little bit of a nuance to the game, but that's just kind of more of the traditional women's game staying still involved in the current version of the game.

[01:05:22] Where, like I said, there was a time where if you just cleared the ball and got to X, you got free base. Like everyone just let you sit there and go back there all day, tie your shoe if you want, pick, you know, pitch a tent, have a picnic, whatever you want back there. It's just, it's crazy. So I think that's kind of like the traditional women's game still kind of hanging around. But I do think like, I think that was huge for the charm because I kind of mentioned this earlier with the guys game.

[01:05:49] The charm roster to me is very heavily geared towards defense. So when you look at their roster, you've got, like you said, it's, it's almost built to have the full changes. Because you could have so many, you've got defensive legends on that team. Like Meg Dowdy is team USA gold medal, like literally the goat. And she's a defensive player. Now in high school, she played middie, right?

[01:06:17] But, but that doesn't mean she's a WLL middie. And in that roster, you know, same thing. You got Lizzie Colson, who's, you saw her in transition. You saw her playing offense, but you also could see where I could see where she's not really an offensive player all the way. She's got the skills to get to the cage. She can score in transition, but you know, her dodge game is a little bit different. So with the charm specifically, I think they're like we said earlier, I think they're very strong defensively.

[01:06:45] Their roster is a defensive built roster, but I think their issue going to be going forward here. Like they're Oh, and two now. I think their real problem is that they're just kind of void of some offensive playmakers. Yes. We have Sydney black who can get it done and she can beat people and she can win matchups. Okay. But Alex Holman is not a Dodger. She can feed, which was very much needed tonight because her assisting from the cage.

[01:07:13] And I even wrote down in my notes, third quarter, three 55 left. Alex lost Holman expelled from the game for the dangerous shot. And I knew that was going to be the changing point because she was filling in as kind of Sydney black being Batman. Alex from X with the feed became Robin and on their team, who else is there to create offense? Like I I'd really like to see grace Griffin dodge more. She in the first game was really initiating today.

[01:07:43] I thought she was kind of like there were periods of the game and I'm like, they need grace Griffin out there to initiate opposite of Sydney black. So now you can dodge two people dodging from both sides, but she was gone for periods of time. And then when she came in, like she didn't really get to dodging. Aurora accordingly, great college Dodger would love to see her be more aggressive at a Dodger because I think the charm offense is, is lacking. They got really good players, but you, there was a couple shifts tonight.

[01:08:11] Now, again, Megan Whittle, Maryland's all time leading scorer, which is crazy because we all think of Taylor Cummings, but Megan Whittle is actually their all time leading scorer. She's out. So she could be that other offensive piece that they're missing. But right now I think they're kind of strapped offensively. If it's not Sydney black getting it done, we need Alex to assist what five more times. We need her to find five more assists because even though she had a bunch of dimes, it was,

[01:08:40] it was helping, but it wasn't, it wasn't really enough. Like they weren't really, they cut it close. They never really kind of, and then you look at the other side, you got Charlotte can create her own shot. You got Wallach can create her own shot. You got Weeks can create her own shot. Casey Choma and Andy Aldave, they can, that's five players right there that can create their own shot where Alex Holman isn't really a Dodger. She's not really going to create her own shot.

[01:09:07] If you give it to her in space, she's a good scorer, right? And she wraps that crease really well. But if you look at game one and game today, you'll notice that she's like, she needs to take that extra step to greatness. She keeps taking like really door, you know, doorstep shots where she got to take one more, but the charm just don't have a bunch of people that can create their own shot outside of Sydney and a little bit of grace Griffin where a team like the guard, I just named five players that can definitely create their own shot. And I didn't even mention Dempsey Arsenault's on their team. She can create her own shot.

[01:09:37] Now we're up to six. So you got six players that can create their own shot versus charm. That's kind of struggling there. But they're built defensively. And that's the only reason they were in that game. Like they killed that three minute penalty easily, not easily their butts off, but they, that three minute penalty could have been like, wow, we lost by 12 today. You just get a three minute penalty and Alex Holman out of the game. So we're losing our number two offensive player in this game.

[01:10:03] We're now man down for three minutes and she's expelled and we're already down Megan Whittle. Like that could have been, I actually thought that was where this game was going to get ugly, but their defense was phenomenal. So it's a gift and a curse. The charm roster is built for defense and they did that tonight, but their offense is so lacking that they didn't have the offense to get back in. And I don't even think that if they stayed five on five without that expulsion, you know,

[01:10:30] without Holman going out, I don't know that they climbed back in there. That is. And as the games go on, like, aren't you just going to make sure you take care of Sydney Black a little bit better, like defend her a different way and say, like you said, Hey, if these other girls that can't create their own shot, if they beat us, that's great. We got to stop letting Sydney Black beat us. She's really. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I know a lot of people are going to say that expulsion was what.

[01:11:00] Yeah. I don't think the charm lose. That was my thing. I didn't feel like. It may have fired them up actually. That's what. That's exactly what it felt like. That defense started balling. Yes. Yeah. Especially when, when they, when they closed out that three minute penalty, like you said, like it seemed to light a fire of like, Oh, we can do that. Like we can do this. It's back against the ball. Had to do it. Right. And they just couldn't. Bunch of F-bombs in the huddle. And here we come. I love that part.

[01:11:28] They just couldn't kind of finish it. I think they got to within one at one point. And then, and then it kind of got away from them. I think, I think the, the having to go as hard as they did to get to that point, I think finally caught up to them and it ended up being a five point game in the end. But I'm with you. I didn't, I didn't think they were, they looked like they were getting back into the game before that. I thought we, we ended up in the same play.

[01:11:57] I mean, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's not a five goal game. Maybe it's a two or three goal game. But I felt like we were going to end up in the same place anyway. Like you said, I think the defense kept them in it for, for a while, but they just, they, they never felt like they were ever going to outscore. They would get their stops and then they would get the ball to the other side of the field. And it's like, who's going to put this in? If it's not Sydney black. Right. And who is it? And for a while there, it was home and feeding people, but then she's out.

[01:12:27] So now it's like, we got the stop, but who's going to put it in? I mean, there was multiple possessions where I saw two and three defenders on offense. Yeah. So like that kind of goes to show you like, you know, at this level, like if you've got two and three defenders on offense right now, that means that offensive unit is definitely lacking a little bit of production. So I think that roster is kind of a, I think their roster is the most challenging roster. If I, if I was a coach in this WLL championship series, I think that roster would be the one

[01:12:56] that you have to do the most work with, um, in terms of like, man, we really got to rely on our defense. That's great. That's our calling card, but then we really have to work, you know, super efficient shot selection and finishing on offense. Because I just think, you know, I look at that roster offensively and I don't see a bunch of people that can create their own shot. I see great players that in a team setting have all had great careers, but they weren't all people that could create their own offense. Yeah.

[01:13:26] And it's such an important part of the sixes game, super important part of the sixes. You got it. Yeah. I mean, and we yesterday with the archers, that's the first time I've ever seen a kind of Joe Keegan push back on me calling them a two way players because so many of them in the field game play strictly defense. They were their short stick defensive midfielders or, or straight up poles.

[01:13:53] Uh, but in, in this, in the sense of sixes, they are two way players because, uh, you know, they're, they're defensive players, but you know, I think, I think, uh, I think each one of them had like three points, at least three points last night. And it's the first time I've ever seen, uh, a defensive kind of team actually like put

[01:14:17] up numbers and, and be good going offense, you know, in the, in the, uh, I I've always called it the battle for the soul of sixes that, that, uh, the world games, 20, 22 sixes championship between Canada and us where Canada was like all offense all the time. And the U S was all two way guys, two way midfielders, you know, and it was really the battle for the soul. And they, they just obliterated us.

[01:14:44] And, and since then it's kind of been like, you know, some, some people have tried it again and it's just never really worked when, when put up against those teams. If you, if you're playing defense, you can't score and scoring is the name of the game in sixes. You can try to obviously balance it out, but you have to, you have to be able to score. And, uh, I I'm glad to hear you say that because again, I, that's what I'm seeing is the, the

[01:15:14] charm just couldn't score. And, and again, I didn't think that even, even without the expulsion, I just didn't see them getting into that game, uh, in, in terms of winning it, you know, keeping it relatively close. Sure. But, um, not, not winning it. Uh, so I'm, I'm glad to see that someone with some knowledge thought the same thing.

[01:15:37] Um, uh, other, or I guess the kind of the last thing I wanted to talk about was, was Haley Waters. Uh, yeah, I, um, I don't know. I don't know if you saw the tweet. It was, it was on the, the, uh, broadcast last night, but, or whenever they, yeah, they played last night, Kaylee. Cause no, no, she's, it must've been the first night, the first night when, when the, the charm played, uh, I'm like, wait, which team does she playing on?

[01:16:07] I should probably write that down in my notes better. Um, uh, a buddy tweeted out and it actually got put on that, uh, water covers 70% of the earth waters, waters covers the other 30%. Um, she is one of those ones. Like we talked about, uh, steals some, some, some goals and keeps you in, in the game that way.

[01:16:33] And again, back to the defensive thing, you're, you can, you can keep some points off the board, but if you can't, if you can't put them in on the other end, you know, she made 12 saves and was at 40% and, and they lost by five. Right. You know, you can't huge. Yeah. Where, and then you watched like Taylor Moreno last night, who's doing basically the same thing, but then getting the ball up and out and, and creating, creating offense and from

[01:17:02] the goalie spot, the dimes she was throwing. I just absolute, I, I made a different reference for your sake, Superbowl champions, freaking Jalen hurts out there, just dropping it right in the bread basket. Yeah. And, and creating not, not even just creating offense, creating easy offense. Right. Right. Right. You know, like your advantage. Yeah. Huge, huge advantage. Oh, excuse me.

[01:17:33] Um, speaking of we will. Oh, geez, I'm dying. Uh, we will roll right into tomorrow's games. Uh, the first game is going to be the WLL game with the aforementioned Taylor Moreno led homes playing the charging. Uh, what are you looking at coming into this game? Being, being the women's lacrosse guy, what should I be looking at?

[01:17:58] Um, so I think this is the game that really would tell me a lot about who's probably going to pull away with this thing. Um, I think right now it's a three team race. I don't think the charm have what it takes, um, to get it done. I, I would say that the other three teams are kind of a toss up here. Um, but I think that this game is probably the game that I would say, looking at the schedule already, this is the biggest, the biggest matchup for me.

[01:18:27] Um, I think both teams here in this setup, again, have players that can create offense. Um, I think they have, you know, good defenses, good enough, good defenses. But I think that both of these teams have a lot of offensive firepower. Um, and I have a lot of those two way mids. Like if you look at the charging roster, it's offensive player.

[01:18:51] One, two, three, uh, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, nine of the 10 players are heavy offensive players. So they're good enough to aim is that they can D up, but they've got a lot of offensive firepower. Right. And then I think the same thing, um, you know, you have really good goalkeeping in both teams,

[01:19:17] but then I think it's the same thing, um, with the palms is you have a lot of offensive firepower, just enough defense to get it done. Um, and a lot of two eight people that can play both sides. Um, but again, great goalie keeping. And I think this to me is the game that you're looking for is, you know, which one of these teams is really going to pull ahead as the, you know, the main team out there. I think the guard are figuring it out.

[01:19:45] Like if you told me that the guard went at all in a, you know, a couple of days, I wouldn't be shocked because they're, they're figuring out. I think tonight was huge. I think if they would have lost tonight somehow, that'd be a whole different story, but I think they figured out a lot. I think their chemistry is coming together. I think the palms have a lot of good chemistry to start with out of all four teams. I think the palms have the best chemistry to start with. I think the guard are figuring it out. I think charging is still figuring it out. I think the charm is crazy. It is.

[01:20:12] They got a lot of Terps on there, but again, their, their chemistry is on the defensive end. And then that offensive struggle is where there's not a lot of chemistry. Um, so that, that to me is what I think is going to, is what you're looking for. These are the, it's probably the two, two better teams at this point. Um, and I would swap out, you know, the garden and charging as maybe number two. I mean, personally, I think the palms are the best. Um, I personally think that, I mean, again, I've worked with players on almost all four

[01:20:42] of these teams, but I think Allie Mastroianni is just the complete player. Like she's a true two way, like she's going to go be your best defender and your best offensive player. And if we included draws in here, she'd be another X factor there. Um, and I think the sixes, I think sixes is really going to show the world, but Allie can do. Um, because I think when you get into full field lacrosse, Allie is a very, very, very

[01:21:11] good team player. But I think there's times where she should just step up and be the alpha and say like, you know, Hey, I get it team player, but I'm the one. And I think in sixes, you can be the one a little bit better because there's less people, less people to please. There's a little bit less on the clock. So you have less system play a little bit more of, okay, I got to go here. And I think this format allows for Allie to be like the true, like dominant player that

[01:21:38] she is without having to be, you know, and I, and I say this, like, you know, I don't want her to not be a, not a team player because you got to be a player, but you can also be the one, like you can be the one and be a great team player. And I think when she gets into, you know, full field stuff, um, I think she sometimes is a little bit too much of a team player and a little bit less of, Hey, I'm the go-to. So I think this is going to be this championship series is where I think Allie pretty much

[01:22:06] is going to be the leader of the palms, which she is now, I guess she's the captain. Um, but I think just the way she can kind of affect this game with more touches and less people getting touches, I think it's going to allow her to really push them ahead. And I do think they have the best captain. Um, like you, like even just look at, look at the charm, like how ironic is that the Maryland team, actually their best player today was a Tar Heel and Kaylee waters. She was a Tar Heel.

[01:22:35] So they're out there getting their butt saved by a Tar Heel goalie. Even though they're supposed to be the Maryland team. So I think that's interesting. I, you know, again, I, I didn't, I, I said, I know, I knew even a lot of the women that I knew like their name, I didn't really know much about them. I know Allie because as, as much as you've worked with, again, like you said, people on

[01:23:01] all of these teams, I know specifically that you have worked with Allie a good amount. And so I, I knew to kind of be watching her and that, that, and game one, I, I didn't, I don't think I would have even had to have no, like she jumped off the screen and was, that was a game where she was playing in Charlotte. And I think Allie outscored her being the more offense.

[01:23:31] And I, and I, this is my wild prediction. I think Allie wins the golden stick. And I, and I, and I know a lot of people are going to be like, no, it's going to be Charlotte, but, but in a way, okay. Like Meg Dowdy played Charlotte very, very well tonight. Meg Dowdy played a great defensive game against Charlotte tonight. And then you add on to, if Meg plays a really good game and play some good defense and you've

[01:24:00] got Kaylee waters back there on fire, that's a strategy. That's a situation that doesn't like a lot of these goals would have went in, but Kaylee was on them. So I think there was a combination there. And in game one, Kayla woods played Charlotte very well. Also, even though Charlotte had, I think she had five in that game. I think she had five. Yeah. Kayla woods played her very well.

[01:24:23] So in a way, Charlotte has very specific patterns of movement. Like if you watch Charlotte play, she has not, I don't want to say predictable. Charlotte is not predictable, but a lot of Charlotte shots. You'll notice she, her hands are free for the shot, but somebody is on her body, which means she didn't really get separation. She just got her hands free. And I know in lacrosse we'll say, well, your hands free. That's all that matters.

[01:24:52] I get it. Except for the fact that Charlotte's a power shooter. And if someone's pushing on her hips, you're taking some of that power out of her shot. So I, in a way, and I'm not saying Charlotte's going to become predictable, but there are certain defenders in this league on these rosters that play Charlotte very well. And with only four teams playing, if every team's got one person that can play Charlotte very well, she doesn't have very many, like, you know, easy outings.

[01:25:19] I don't think any of the outings are easy, but I think she, she's the best player. She's drawing the best matchups, but some of these defenders understand her style of play and they're, they're playing her very well. Like I thought Meg Dowdy and Kayla Woods have played her very well, a lesser deep ender on her all game. And she probably had eight in the first game. And I think tonight she may have had four. She had four points, three goals, one assist. Yes. So think about it. Three goals. Or I think she had like over 10 shots.

[01:25:49] Did she have over double digit shots? That's like a subpar day for Charlotte. If you give Charlotte 10 shots, she's usually in the five or six goal range. She had 11 shots. Yeah. 11 shots and three goals. So that's a combination of Meg playing her really well. And then Kaylee Waters making those big saves. And so I think, I think that's going to wear over the next couple of days where I think Allie in a way is a harder matchup to defend because she's big. She's fast. She's tall.

[01:26:18] She can dodge. She can shoot. She can do everything inside and outside just like Charlotte can. But I think, I mean, Allie's probably a little bit quicker, a little bit faster, that kind of thing. So I think Allie is going to win the golden stick. And I think that'll lead to her team being also the better team. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I described it.

[01:26:42] She, she looked like Jordan when, you know, I'm sure you watched The Last Dance. And when he talks about like, even if he had to, he would, he would invent, you know, something to be mad at. But, uh, and, and she reminded me of that Allie did watching because it was like every time Charlotte went and did something, she was like, Oh, you got that. Oh, check. Look what I got. Like it pushed her.

[01:27:11] It felt like, and I think she knows she's, she's the one on that team. I think she knows when she looks at that roster, this is my role. I am supposed to be the one, a, you know, offensive creator here, whether it's give it out, score it, get the defense. Like, I think she knows her role on that team. And I think that also is like the way the rosters were constructed. You know, these people have played with each other. They come from the same university. They've probably played in alumni games together. They played in the pros together. So, you know, it's not like, Hey, let's figure out who's the one here.

[01:27:41] I think past eight, everyone's like, yeah, Allie, this is you. And I don't think that's a, you know, I don't think in that roster, anyone else is going to try and say, Oh, I should be the one. I don't think there's going to be any type of that strife. I think they've played together. You can hear Allie in the mic'd up clip in the one clip. I think she went to Sam Geiersbach and said, you're literally the best at dodging under go under next time. Like, and I think those are the things that really help is like, if you're one, your number

[01:28:08] one person is telling your second and third people to do this, do this. They're like, Oh, she's telling me to do that. I'm going to, I'm going to go for it. And then she's just building that, you know, that confidence in the rest of her teammates. And I think that's going to go a long way. All right. So clearly it sounds like you have the palms winning tomorrow against, against charging. I would take the palms over charging tomorrow. I think their chemistry is there from the jump. I think charging is still figuring it out.

[01:28:36] I think Boston guard definitely took a major step in his figure. I like the way they play together. Boston guards have some, some good spacing and some good movement. And I think that they're, they're really, their chemistry is coming along quick. I think palms just have the chemistry coming in. And you mentioned box earlier too. I really liked their coaching staff because Jenny cap is team USA's box. She's a gold medal box women's coach.

[01:29:04] And then you've got Adam Sear who spent time in the college game with Notre Dame. So you have a traditional field lacrosse mind, and then you have a women's box mind. And that to me, like, this is, this to me is like the, the, what they tried to do with the chaos. Right. They tried to have that try. That was supposed to be the box team, right? That was supposed to be the team that had the box field influence. And I think this is like the box field influence of the women's sixes game here.

[01:29:32] And I, and I, and I think that, I think that'll go a long way because. You know, you have some of these players that played like Allie played gold medal. Box under Jenny cap. So there's already a connection there. They don't have to learn new terminology. She's like, yeah, I already went through a gold medal run with you. So I know what you expect. I know what that means. And then she can help some of her other teammates get on board. Like, Hey, when she says this, it means that, you know, and I think, I think their chemistry is there from the beginning. And it's such a short tournament that that chemistry goes a long way.

[01:30:02] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think, I think I'm there with you on, on, on palms. I'm not going to be probably shocked if it goes the other way. I would expect, I would expect probably a two goal game. The women tend to be slightly less scoring than the men. So, you know, in 1816, kind of, kind of game in favor of the palms, I think would be kind of what I would, I would expect to see.

[01:30:31] Moving over to the men's side, we have the archers versus the Atlas. This is like you, you mentioned in the, in the WL. That's the same thing. Yes. The same, same thing. Like this is a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I think these are the two that people are, are already kind of eyeing as being, being at the end, deciding it. And definitely it's going to at least, like you said, tell, tell a lot of, of where

[01:30:59] these teams lay out. Um, what are you looking at in this game? So I think if I had to pick a team, I'd say the archers probably win this. Um, I think they just move the ball quicker, faster. I think their chemistry offensively is just a little bit cleaner. I think, um, you know, the, the Atlas, I like everything they're doing. Um, but I just think, I think it'll be a close one.

[01:31:27] I think it'd be a close one, but if I had to, I don't know. Man, I really like, I like the Atlas roster a lot. I do. Yeah. I really liked the Atlas roster and I've never been a big archers guy, but I do like, it's crazy how these, you know, I'll go back to the beginning of the PLL, but it's crazy how these teams and the names like kind of matched up with the personalities and the archers. I've always thought like their personality and the team name has always been like an awesome match.

[01:31:56] Like they really are like a little sniper gang. Everything's precise. Like the ball really moves quickly. It's clean. Like, like they really play like archers would play. It's weird. Um, so I think that's there, but I really liked the Atlas roster. I mean, there's guys like, I, you know, I'm always a big miles fan. Um, you know, like cost to be all, I mean, he's nasty. So I agree. I think this game could go either way. I really do.

[01:32:26] I think this one will be a really tight one, but I think this one will ultimately tell you, you know, who it is that's going to be, you know, pulling ahead. Yeah. Like I can see the cannons in the finals. Yeah. I like, I'm a big Asher fan. And yeah, uh, big, big Asher fan. I love everything about his game. Yeah. I was, I always go to the comments of his highlights and watch people hate on them. Like this dude does. He does nothing. He just leans on people. I'm like that.

[01:32:56] You know what? He does it at very high level. I don't care what you call it. Stop it. Like the dude's the man. I love his game. I love everything about his game. He's so crafty. He's crafty without having to do a bunch of stuff. It's like his game is so, there's so many little things to his game that are awesome. Yeah. He's, he's great. Um, I I'm so torn on this game. It's such a, it's such a, such a tight game.

[01:33:25] I, I think initially my thought was archers pull it out. I think they just have a little bit more of that, um, offensive firepower that we've been talking about. And, and again, probably just a little bit more on the defensive end as well. Um, not much in either direction. Um, and the thing that that's really given me pause is, well, I think that's true.

[01:33:51] I think Liam Intamin and goal is that dude who's going to, he's going to make all of the saves that you, that you expect him to make. And then he's going to steal a handful. And I just probably is the X factor to be honest. Right. Now that you say that, that makes me, that would make me switch. Cause you're right. He's balling. And you know, if all things are equal across the board, like that's the X factor. Yes.

[01:34:19] And that, that's kind of where I'm crazy. Like insane. Robberies were wild. Yes. Yes. Insane. And, and, and again, we talked earlier about the, the, the 40% is kind of the, the PLL average. And if I remember correctly, he was at 57 in a sixes game. Like that's insane. So, so barring that there's some kind of unforeseen collapse out of him that, you know, the archers

[01:34:48] just do the lights out. I just don't, I don't know. Like you said, all things being equal. He's that. That might be the pendulum swinger for me too, is goalie play. Yeah. They're both offensive talented. They're both defensively talented. They both play in really good ball. They got, I think, are they the two highest scoring teams so far in the series?

[01:35:11] Well, I mean, the cannons dropped 34 a day, but, but I think one game having not played one, not having not played their second games, I think just going off that first game. Yes. I think they were both the two highest and. And, you know, I mean, part of me feels like, like 34 goals out of the cannons is less representative

[01:35:38] of how good they are than what Atlas and archers. Yeah. Atlas and archers did is maybe a better representation of what they are. Um, but yeah, no, I don't. Like I said, my, my first thought was archers. I think I'm going to. No, I kind of want to switch to, if I was going to, if I was going to bet, I might pick because of what you just said, because the data would show that that dude's about to play out of his mind.

[01:36:07] Yeah. So if they're going to shoot real well, he's going to counter half apparently 50% of them in a sixes game, which is crazy. That's a crazy X factor. I would say, I would say that's got to be the X factor for the Atlas over, over archers, but I think this will probably be the best game of the series outside of, you know, when they actually get the playoff. Yeah. Yeah. The round Robin round. Yeah. Yeah. I would, I would, I would definitely probably agree with you. I'm trying to think of who, who's going to be on Saturday.

[01:36:36] It'll be, it'll be archers charging. Yeah. Archers and a whip snake. So that's probably an archers win. And then Boston and Atlas will be another great game. This is a nice little stretch for them. They can really take some big steps forward. They pick up a win tonight or tomorrow, Friday and Saturday. Then they pretty much are saying, Hey, this is legit. This is the real deal. And all right. So, so we both went poems.

[01:37:05] We, we both like both teams, but maybe think a Liam Intamin is the X factor. You got it. Um, I'll, I'll get us out of here the same way that we, we get out today. Right now, who are your picks for champions and golden stick for both leagues? Um, I'm going to go palms for the champions. I'm going to go Ali Mastriani for the golden stick.

[01:37:33] Now that we've talked about this, I'm going to pick Atlas to win it all. Okay. But I really think that like, I got, I know it's crazy, but like this dude touches the ball so much, but like, I don't see why Asher and Olsen can't stay hot for a golden stick. Because like you said, if I'm a defense, what am I going to do? I'm going to, I'm going to get him away from being a feeder, which means he, in theory, if he's scoring, he's scoring. Right. Right. And then as soon as you try and stop him from scoring, like he, he, to me is like, you

[01:38:02] know, Shaq back in the day, if you double down on him, he's going to find a three point shooter. If you let him score, he's going to score. So I know, I think between the two games, he's got to be up there between the first game and you know, a little bit less yesterday or today. Yeah. The issue is, well, it's scoring, it's scoring points. So yeah. I don't have a full, all I have is it's all, it's only listed by points.

[01:38:30] He is tied with Dylan Malloy and Brian Costabile. The difference is he's played two games and they've played one. He does. Right. He does have, it looks like seven of his would be, would be scoring points compared to six for Dylan Malloy and five for Brian Costabile. Um, I discussed, I, you know, Dylan Malloy, I think a lot, a lot of his point, I believe

[01:38:55] it was six of his eight points were somewhat garbage time as that, as that game kind of got out of hand, um, is when he really started scoring. So I don't know that you necessarily think of him as keeping that pace up. Right. Um, but I also think a lot of this is going to come down to, you know, who, who makes it to the championship. You know, a lot, a lot of it's going to be who has that extra game to play.

[01:39:23] Um, because, cause then right, right there with them is Mac O'Keefe who, you know, was shooting lights out last night. He's, he's sitting on six scoring points as well. And he's only played one game. So, you know, we'll like, like we said about, about the championship, but also about the golden stick tomorrow night's game is going to tell us a lot. Um, and that, that was kind of my idea with, with checking in every day on who we got.

[01:39:51] Um, so, so we went poems and Asher, who, who was the, uh, who you got for in the championship? You thinking? Did you say, did I miss it? Yeah. I would go, I would go, I didn't say who would have put in the championship. I just said Atlas to probably win it. I just can't really decide who they're playing. Is it Boston or is it the archers? On my paper, on my paper initially, I had Boston and Atlas down. But I also think that's just because I've just never been an archers fan.

[01:40:21] Yeah, I've, I've just been an archers fan, although I'm, I'm probably, uh, a little bit of a, uh, negative archers fan and negatives of bad term. I'm a, uh, superstitious archers fan. Right. And, and once they, once they settled into cities, I kind of lost my connection. It was a lot easier to root for a team that didn't have a location for me anyway.

[01:40:49] Um, once they became the Utah archers, I was like, well, I don't have any connection to that. Right. Uh, so, you know, we'll talk about my, my fandom in at another, another time. My, my initial, well, my dark horse was miles Jones, but, uh, he ended up, he's only got two scoring points right now. So barring, he has just an insane game. A bunch of good shots. He had a couple of pipes. They just weren't falling. He had a bunch of really good takes.

[01:41:17] Like he could have easily went from two to six at a, he could have easily had a six bowl game. Yeah. I, I thought he, I thought he probably should have had at least five. Yeah. Definitely would say four, four or five for sure. Yeah. He, they, he pipes, couple saves. Yeah. And then, and then I thought he faded a little bit. Um, yeah, the, the one issue, I think he has made four sixes.

[01:41:43] My one issue is just that, that level of conditioning needed to just run up and down. You play a lot of defense. He got stuck on me a few times. Yeah. He got stuck out there a few times in a row. Like there was a couple, there was like three D shifts in a row where I was like, where'd you go? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My, uh, my actual golden stick pick was Marcus Holman, who I think is probably unlikely. I mean, he's, he's still in it, I guess.

[01:42:12] Uh, but he, um, you know, I don't, I don't, I think it's unlikely. I'm, I'm probably going to change it, but it's probably not going to be until tomorrow. Um, and then I had the cannons, uh, winning the championship. I think, I think I'm probably fully off of that after tonight. Um, which is weird cause they, you know, they scored 34 points the most ever, you know? Um, but I, I, I don't know about you.

[01:42:39] I just, I watched them and I thought that this is probably whoever wins tomorrow night is probably number one. And then, and then it's, again, you can, you can probably still have these two there, but, but they're just, they're not the number one anymore. Um, so that will probably change, but for the, for the sake of changing it today, I'll

[01:43:04] say, I'll say I'm changing it to, uh, to Atlas because of what we talked about. And until, until the end of the game tomorrow, I think Liam Intamin might just be that, that, um, that, um, X factor. That's the word I'm looking for, for the women. I had Charlotte North and the guard winning mostly because I, I just didn't know. And Boston is 50 minutes from me. Um, and I, I like their roster. I like the guard roster.

[01:43:33] I think they're figuring it out. And if this, this is one of those things where if this championship series was like seven more days, this would all change both men's, it could change fast. I mean, you're asking them to create a lot of chemistry in a short period of time. If you gave them seven more days and four more games, I bet you the guard would be creeping up real fast.

[01:43:56] I, I'm quite sure that they, especially with the WLL being brand new that they wanted both leagues playing both days, you know, so that like you, like you talked about earlier, you watch one game, you go get a snack, you come back, the other league is playing. But I, I, I almost kind of wish that they had done every other day so that everybody had a full day of rest, a full day of preparing for their next game.

[01:44:25] Um, stuff like that. Cause I, I think that would go a long way towards, towards what you're talking about with that, that idea of having some more time to mesh, to grow. Uh, they've, they've only been there since I think it's Friday of last week playing with each other and stuff. So, uh, so yeah, I, I do like the guard. I don't like, like, I think you said earlier, I'm not going to be totally shocked if a Monday

[01:44:52] afternoon, they are the champions, but I'm, I'm with you. Watching the, watching the poems last night, it was like, yeah, when people are playing fun, that's, that's, that's something going on. Like you can't just go out with a bunch of strangers and right away have fun. And they guys are having fun. You're like past the chemistry stage. You're like, yeah, this is fun. Like, let's fall. And they, they felt the most complete again, there are other teams that are close, I think,

[01:45:20] but they felt the most complete. They, they have people at all of the positions doing all of the things. And so I, I think I am, I'm going in with the palms. The question is, do I go with you on, on alley? Um, uh, you know what, you know what? I'm going to, I'm going to go. I think it's her Charlotte. I don't think there's, you know, in the guys game, you could pick someone on each roster. I don't, I look at the girls rosters and I don't see.

[01:45:50] I don't think there's a, to clear cut top dogs. I, for sure. I'm going one we talked about earlier. I'm, I'm going to, again, today, Sydney black. The issue with Sydney black is the issue with her is. They seem like they just don't have a chance to even make the playoffs. Like they are, they, they seem clearly that fourth place team and they will not make the playoffs. I don't.

[01:46:19] And I think with her being the one and the only one on that roster, I think that defenses are going to start saying, I don't care if the other four beat us. We're not going to let her beat us where who she, you know, now all of a sudden it's like a lot of emphasis on her. And, you know, she got a lot in the first game. She started off hot. They went away from her for a little bit. Then they came back to her. This game, they stayed with her all game. But again, like when you're the one all day, all the time, you it's, that's grueling. Like it's physically grueling.

[01:46:48] Now all of a sudden your first step isn't as quick. Cause you're a little beat up and you're taking hits. And so I'm with you. She's definitely the third one. She's the next one. She's, she's one I'm, I am saying until basically until tomorrow's games. And we have a little bit more of a clear picture as I think, I think she's capable, even though I think it's unlikely that her team is even around long enough for her to be in that conversation. I'm the end of the tournament.

[01:47:17] So with that being said, we will get out of here, but just before we get out, I wanted to say, I got a comment on one of the videos. I don't even remember which one from a guy named, I hope I'm not saying this incorrectly. Derek fam, I think is, was his name who thanked us for this content and was very appreciative. And I just wanted to shout him out real quick and say that meant a lot.

[01:47:44] Again, I have been working on this for about two months and don't, you know, you put it out and it's like, is anyone going to listen to this at all? So, uh, I am. Yeah. So it was definitely nice to hear and see. So, uh, with that being said, I will get out of here. Thank you, Casey, for joining us. I really appreciated all of the specifically women's, uh, conversation that we could have and learn from, uh, but all of it obviously, uh, was great.

[01:48:13] I hope maybe you have some time before we're all said and done that you can come back. Yeah, definitely want to. This is fun. Okay. Um, and then, uh, tomorrow night for, for those listening, I, I did accidentally schedule a date, uh, for Valentine's day. So I'm hoping to get up early Saturday morning and still get an episode out. But if you don't hear from me on Saturday, that's what happened.

[01:48:41] We will continue Saturday night and, and, uh, we'll put something out for Sunday for sure. And the rest of the tournament as well. So hopefully there's something for you guys Saturday morning, if not apologies, but we'll see you Sunday morning.