The PLL Mecca is...Utah?

Neil Barrett (00:02.86)
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the run out. I am Neil Barrett. He is Brandon Hooten. Brandon, we had a pretty fun weekend of lacrosse in Utah. You were there.

Brandon Hooten (00:17.245)
Yes, second year in a row.

Neil Barrett (00:19.79)
second year in a row shooting for anyone who doesn't know Brandon is a photographer and you were shooting the games pumping out some incredible stuff.

Brandon Hooten (00:30.003)
Yeah, I was pretty pleased with the content this weekend. Like I told you guys, that was literally the best I've ever shot in a day, a game, a weekend, like anything.

And we got some stuff out pretty quick, like stuff that I felt like we were kind of beating the league at certain points. Not that it's a competition, but just, you know, one thing you're always taught as a photographer is like the quicker you can get stuff out, the better. Cause the news cycle, especially nowadays is so quick that like you got to get stuff out. So I was pretty pleased cause I didn't have a connection down there. I was using a hotspot the entire time. So yeah, a bit of a, bit of a rocky start that first game. And I realized there was no connection and I was like, well, this is how we're gonna have to do it. But.

Neil Barrett (01:03.746)
Wow.

Neil Barrett (01:08.014)
You

Brandon Hooten (01:12.253)
out.

Neil Barrett (01:13.154)
No, you were killing it, because I did notice speed first. I was like, wow, like, you know, I don't, I know photography. I don't really know like the connection side of it and how people are getting it pumped out. I've watched some guys, some of the PLL guys run back and forth with like memory cards and stuff. I didn't know how you were doing it, but I did, I noticed speed and I noticed quality, although,

I told you this in the chat. had to, I was like, your work's always been good. I told you when you first came on the show and I was looking for some information on like how to add you to the website and stuff like that. And I found your photography stuff. was like, holy crap, there's some amazing stuff. So I've always thought that the talent was there, but like the, I don't know how much of it was like.

It was beautiful in Utah this weekend. I don't know how much of it was kind of like the emotion of the games that were taking place because

Brandon Hooten (02:11.529)
definitely helps.

Neil Barrett (02:20.108)
because I know you're great, but like there was something about the level of what you guys were producing this weekend that was really, really incredible. I did wanna ask you, being there, what was it like in Utah? Like on TV, it was incredible, but what was it like there in person?

Brandon Hooten (02:42.621)
Same thing in person. Back to back years, they've been a very good crowd. Like I told Jackson in that group chat, it's nice that they have their team. I remember the first, I think it was last year guess, was the first year with City's. In Denver specifically, there were still lot of Outlaws fans, but there was also a good mix in of other fans that were just cheering for both.

Neil Barrett (02:48.568)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (02:55.438)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (03:10.527)
And even before cities were announced, like same type of deal on a bigger level. Whereas like Utah both years has been like, nope, this is our team. We hate every other team that's playing. Like this is what it is. And that was really, really cool. Like, and especially like the second day, the second year in row, they booed Brennan like an insane amount. And it was even louder this year. And I was like, you guys care that much that he killed you like a season and a half ago? Like, you know, but they, they do and they hold onto it like real sports fans do. So it was awesome.

Neil Barrett (03:19.052)
Hehehe.

Neil Barrett (03:36.45)
Well.

Neil Barrett (03:40.09)
They do and that's great. But also I'm of the opinion that I don't think it was as, I mean it was about Brennan. But also I'm like, if Brennan wasn't on that field, they'd just found another target. They'd just boot pack half an hour, they'd have booed. They'd have just picked someone and like honed in. But.

Brandon Hooten (03:53.905)
I'm sure. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (03:59.485)
It was funny though, because there were a couple times where he literally caught the ball, turned and passed it, and they still found a way to boo him in that like half a second that he caught the ball. I was like, okay, this is impressive.

Neil Barrett (04:06.51)
in that window. Yeah, but Dave, it's one of the things I think they nailed in terms of the placement of the teams in the home cities was Utah from the from the jump, the archers had that Utah connection. And I find it really funny that they don't really have that connection anymore. But Utah has like

that the connection with Utah has stayed, know, Will Manny and the Holmans and I, I don't even think Adam Gettleman is there anymore. Right. Did I? Boston. That's right. I was like, I just saw him on the sideline somewhere and was like, wait, I didn't even realize he was still playing, but you're right. It's Boston. like really

Brandon Hooten (04:44.826)
No, he's with Boston. He's the backup in Boston.

Neil Barrett (04:53.57)
that whole Utah connection that was built originally based on those guys, they're not even there anymore, but that's still Utah's team. And I do think that Utah has become like the number one location. If you're a PLL fan, like that's the place you want, you need to go and watch a game in Utah. Well, four, I guess.

Brandon Hooten (05:14.876)
Yep, Well, and I saw Will Manny was also on the broadcast. I know you said he did a pretty good job. So that's awesome too that he was there doing that. I saw Las Vegas Desert Dogs coach Sean Evans was there as well on the sideline. I saw a TikToker that I'm blanking on his name right now, but he was there. Like there was just a lot of just clear excitement from everybody.

Neil Barrett (05:19.948)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (05:27.549)
okay.

Brandon Hooten (05:39.953)
Even for the games that didn't feature the archers, I felt like the crowd was still pretty strong. Obviously you have the fans that leave because they only care about their team. But generally speaking, for a stadium that has two sides, I was pretty happy with the turnout, all four games. And mean, they even at one point moved the premiums on field seating to another area. I would assume because of space or maybe they sold more, don't fully know. But yeah, it was awesome.

Neil Barrett (05:44.216)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (05:53.516)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (06:06.378)
Awesome. Well, let's get in to some of the games here. We'll start with the California Redwoods beating the Utah Archers, nine to eight. This game. We talked about California last week being a hockey team and only playing three quarters, and I'm not sure that they're going to beat those allegations with this game. I thought both teams looked

awful in the third quarter. It was just one of those like someone someone has to win and it just happened to be the woods but I'm still not sure that they played very well in this game at all.

Brandon Hooten (06:51.132)
Yeah, no, it was a pretty sloppy game. I don't think anyone's gonna argue that. It was nice that California was at least consistent scoring wise in each quarter. If you're gonna win a sloppy game, at least make it consistent throughout, which was good, whereas the archers started really hot and then fell off pretty hard. mean, Dobson and Chase, again, both over 66%.

Mako Keefe finally having like a good game was really good to see. mean, I know it's only three points, but yeah, yeah. But I'm just saying like he struggled for much of the season, so that was good. But yeah, it was just one of those like, know, gritty games that like nothing's really falling. Both teams shot under 20%. And I think Joe Keegs even tweeted out that like California's 15.7 % was like the lowest in a win.

Neil Barrett (07:19.608)
But yeah, at least our leg.

Neil Barrett (07:25.73)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (07:42.492)
I don't know if it was all time or in a certain time frame, but 15.7 % was not the best. But you know what? They found a way and good for them finally getting back on track.

Neil Barrett (07:52.846)
Yeah, no, they I was gonna say that, you know, Brett Dobson ended at 68 % and had 17 saves, but I don't actually remember him really having to work for for much at least. I seem to remember I feel like he had one really, really close like in tight where he kind of robbed someone. But other than that, it was like most of them felt like fairly routine saves and and that

felt like like you were saying part of the woods just shooting was just not getting good shots not taking good shots and you know like I said this is one of those games where somebody had to win and the woods were just slightly less bad than the archers in this game the other I guess

really big thing to talk about coming out of this game was the injuries to Tom Schreiber and Grant Aiment. Tom Schreiber went down with a knee injury and Grant actually finished the game. I don't think anybody was aware that he had any issues until the next game, which we'll get to. He did not play, he was in concussion protocol. So kind of, kind of weird, going to be interesting to see what happens with the archers.

moving ahead. They do have next week off. So hopefully, hopefully that can those two guys can kind of heal up and get back on the field because Utah's probably definitely going to need them. Come come.

Brandon Hooten (09:34.77)
Yep, well, and then they only have one more game as well. Like, you know, every other team I think has two except for Boston has three. So like they're, need, they need to win the game. This isn't a not, I know it's in two weeks, but they have to win that one. And also this is the second year in a row that Tom Schreiber has gone down in Utah in the first game of the weekend. And he was on crutches that second day. So that could be precautionary. I'm not going to speculate on what's going on there, but.

Neil Barrett (09:46.53)
You're right.

Neil Barrett (09:59.822)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (10:04.657)
You it would not shock me if he didn't play come two weeks from now. But I'm sure Grant will at least be back. But yeah, when I found out both of them were out, I was like, you know, not you already had an uphill battle playing back to back against the outlaws and now you have an even bigger hill to climb, which sucks for them. But.

Neil Barrett (10:25.57)
Yeah, yeah. And I'm with you. I'm inclined to believe that that hopefully that was just kind of a precautionary thing and trying to save him for Boston and maybe a playoff run if they can make it. Because it didn't really look like much of anything. But I mean.

Brandon Hooten (10:47.761)
I don't even know what play he got injured on.

Neil Barrett (10:50.806)
It was the one he sprinted full field. He got caught on defense, ended up with, I can't remember if he stripped it or what, ended up scooping the ground ball and took off. And I remember being like, this is the fastest I think I've ever seen Tom Schreiber run. Like he outran people. was like.

was happening. And then he just fell out like he he made a move like he was going to dodge and he kind of like tripped himself up kind of fell over. He didn't his I don't think his feet actually like collided with each other. He just kind of like his momentum just got too far ahead of him and he fell over and he just stayed down and it was like.

what and he didn't, he didn't pull up holding like a hamstring or anything. didn't, it didn't appear to be muscular to be completely honest in the moment. I thought maybe he just kind of smacked his knee on the turf. And it wasn't really until they said he wasn't going to play that I was like, maybe it was something more, but maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was just, maybe he did just like smack his knee on the turf really hard and it just kind of swelled and bruised and he just wasn't going to be able to go.

Brandon Hooten (11:56.667)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (11:58.862)
They don't really tell us much, so we don't really know. It's all speculation, and I'm not trying to go down that rabbit hole too much, but hopefully it is something like that that's not too severe. The other thing I thought, too, when he went down was the Toronto Rock have got to hate seeing him play in Utah because...

I mean, this is this is this goes to a much larger conversation that we will have probably after the PLL season about kind of the future of what these two leagues look like and what it what it means to be a professional lacrosse player in the future because because not only did he get hurt last year in Utah, but the year before that he got hurt in the playoffs.

and missed part of, I think he didn't miss too much because it was his collarbone, but he was out for, I think, like he missed part of a training camp or something for The Rock. So again, if I was The Rock GM, I'd just be like, you know, stop going to Utah.

Brandon Hooten (13:07.441)
Well, I mean, well, or not, because, you know, their owner's talking about how he's gonna be on DND if they don't get their CBA figured out, so maybe he doesn't care. And that's not even me taking a shot for anyone listening, that he literally said that on a public forum.

Neil Barrett (13:16.13)
Fair, fair, probably a conversation. No, he he did say that on a on a public forum and probably something we should have slated in to talk about in this episode. We'll probably going to have to.

Brandon Hooten (13:32.603)
Well, we recorded before that even occurred.

Neil Barrett (13:36.042)
No, that's what I'm saying. We should have probably slated it in for this show. I didn't I didn't even I had kind of forgotten. It's kind of like blown over. I had kind of forgotten about the NLL stuff right now. But yeah, maybe we should talk about that before we get out of here.

Brandon Hooten (13:39.319)
yeah, we can definitely get into that later on if we want to.

Neil Barrett (13:55.392)
But let's move on to the second game of the weekend where the New York Atlas defeated the Maryland Whip Snakes 11 to 8.

The note coming into this game for me was Jim Stagnetta apparently show actively chose not to dress Rob Pinnell and to play Matt Rambo instead. And that seems to have been a mistake.

Brandon Hooten (14:39.101)
I'm not gonna say yes or no. I know you care lot about this. I shouldn't say you care about it, I should say you have some opinions on Penel being in the lineup. I will say that.

Neil Barrett (14:43.554)
I don't care a lot.

Okay. Well, here was my thing. If you want to drop both of them, fine, I get that. But to say that Matt Rambo right here today is better for your team than Rob Pinnell and you would rather play Matt Rambo than Rob Pinnell, that was what I was very opinionated. I don't think, again, while I don't think Rob Pinnell was

what was wrong with this offense. I don't think that he has played at a level where if you dropped him, you'd be like, well, what the hell are they doing? Because again, I didn't think they should have signed him in the first place. So if you drop both of them, I get it. But to

but to not only play Matt Rambo, but to say that you thought it was better for the team, that was, I was like, that is, that's insane. And to that point, they ended up sitting Rambo. I don't think he played most of the second half. And honestly, I they looked better in the second half. Now, how much of that was Atlas getting up big and running out? They were up, totally doing some math here. They were up 10 to four.

before the whips really kinda got rolling a little bit late in the third on into the fourth. That was when I really thought they started to kind of pick up. stopped putting Rambo in and just let, like we have talked about repeatedly, let those young guys do what they were doing at the end of last year and what they were doing this weekend. And it just makes me wonder.

Neil Barrett (16:30.174)
not necessarily would the whips have won but could they could they have potentially pushed atlas more if they had been playing that way the whole game you know so

Other than that, the big story is probably Liam Intamin at 71 % in goal making 20 saves. You know, if not for some of the games Blaise Reardon has had this year, the story might be Liam Intamin. He's been very, very good all year.

Brandon Hooten (17:05.84)
Well, well, and defensively as a whole unit, they've been very good. I mean, they held TJ Malone to one point in this game. And they made the young guys beat them, essentially. And try to, yeah, I mean, only two guys had four points on Maryland, but I mean, they did what they had to do. They let Liam get the shots he wants to see. And once he found that rhythm, like, it was just like, it was routine. It was like, it doesn't matter what you shoot at him. Like, he's gonna save it.

Neil Barrett (17:16.814)
try to.

Neil Barrett (17:27.106)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (17:34.253)
Even by the time the whips kind of you know got hot at the end of that game It was like it it's too late like it that was don't have to score now because you you already let them score too much and Jeff T Third game in a row five points. He's he's hit his groove at the right time especially if he's continuing this the last two weeks into playoffs like

Neil Barrett (17:35.374)
you

Brandon Hooten (17:53.949)
They're a well-rolled machine. Even when Trevor Baptiste won 7-22, it didn't matter. They still got shots, they got good quality shots as well. I thought Emmett Carroll still played pretty decently, but the Atlas are just kind of too much, unfortunately, for them.

Neil Barrett (17:58.454)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (18:08.974)
Yeah, no, I agree. Emmett Carroll, I thought he was, I say only at 52. I feel like any, anytime you're above 50, you're, you're having a fairly good game. And if that defense is slightly better in front of him, I think.

or maybe the offense is slightly worse shooting at him. I think he was solid. He's 100 % earned that number one goalie position for that team. I know that was a bit of a debate earlier, but I don't see them going backwards. Now, I did come out of this game with two questions for you. Number one, I think...

We'll get into the Waterdogs here in a minute, but I think that Michael Sowers maybe took his hands off of that MVP trophy this weekend and he's saying no.

Brandon Hooten (19:07.312)
I know what you're gonna ask me, the answer is no.

Neil Barrett (19:09.686)
No, no, I don't think you know what I don't think. I don't think so. I think that lots of people have put Connor Schellenberger above him. He is officially above him statistically in points this year. Where would you have that MVP right now?

Brandon Hooten (19:35.676)
So who on Michael Sauer's team plays at the level Jeff T. plays at?

who on Michael Sauer's team plays at the level Liam Entenman plays at.

Neil Barrett (19:43.741)
Not CJ cursed.

Neil Barrett (19:50.708)
Not Dylan Ward. To be to be fair. I think you could argue that Matt DeLuca has been maybe not quite as good as Liam Intiman, but he has been very good. They just don't they just don't win when he plays.

Brandon Hooten (19:50.972)
I could keep going down the list.

Brandon Hooten (20:02.873)
He's been good.

Brandon Hooten (20:06.585)
So I say all that to say, it's not that I don't think Shelly can win. It's that when I look at the difference between him and Michael Sowers, it's a two point difference I believe. I don't have it up right in front of me, but it's two point difference. One of them has a super team, one of them does not. I look at the Water Dog's offense and I literally, if you shut down Michael Sowers or you let him score four and then shut him down, they still lose. You shut down Shelly, guess what? You still have T.

You have Kostiebill, you have, you know, Matt Trainor now, you have Xander Dixon, like the list goes on and on and on. So I'm not going to be like, yeah, Shelly jumped him and he's, he's way ahead because he has the better team to help him. Now I'm also someone that believes that you still have to perform and Shelly has been immaculate. He needs to be a finalist. He will be, I believe. but I just think it would have to be such a big gap between those two.

Neil Barrett (20:57.166)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (21:03.919)
for me to be like, yeah, he's way ahead. I'm not saying that Sowers hasn't slowed down. He absolutely has. I also think that it's because teams are selling out to stop him. The first couple of weeks, he had 15 points through two weeks and he has, think, 14 since then or something like that because teams have figured out they cannot go without Michael Sowers. You know, I look at a team like, sorry, this is long-winded answer, but TJ Malone on the whips as well. Like, he's in top five in points as well. Look at his team. It's just him.

Neil Barrett (21:12.78)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (21:18.286)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

No, you're

Neil Barrett (21:33.582)
He's in sixth actually. I only know that because I'm literally looking at it right here.

Brandon Hooten (21:35.099)
Excuse me, I'm sorry. But you get what I'm saying. It's hard for me when these discussions come up to be like, yeah, he for sure jumped him. Because I'm like, it's such a minuscule amount. one guy's getting no help, one guy's getting all the help.

Neil Barrett (21:53.996)
Yeah, well, and and my thought too is I get I get Connor Schellenberger has more points. He's got he actually only has a one point lead on Michael Sowers. He has a two point lead on Jeff Teet. However, as far as I'm concerned, Jeff Teet is the MVP of that that Atlas team. That team goes the way Jeff Teet goes. I don't.

I don't think, again, I understand that Connor Schellenberger has put up more points, but for me that Atlas Offense's MVP is still Jeff T. He is the guy drawing the number one assignment. He is the guy, you know, of putting everything into motion and...

I also think that that Pat Kavanaugh, who also is one point behind Shelley has the same thing with Brennan O'Neill. We have talked about it repeatedly on this show. Brennan O'Neill is the number one offensive assignment on that thing. And he and Pat Kavanaugh is benefiting from being lower down on the pecking order and not that not again, not to say that he hasn't been absolutely fantastic. Same thing with Connor Shelleberger. They are taking advantage of every opportunity they are being given.

But they are being given those opportunities because of who else is in their lineup. And to your point, Michael Sowers and also to your point, TJ Malone, who is a little bit farther down on this list, he's a full seven points behind Connor Schellenberger. But Michael Sowers does not have that help. And when his whole offense was clicking, they screwed it all up.

moved everything around and I thought it looked better for a while this week when CJ was running out of the box in that first half. then like you said, it just felt like the defense was able to kind of key in on him and slow him back down.

Neil Barrett (24:09.004)
I don't know. just, I just wondered kind of what you thought about that MVP race, because I saw a lot of people that were, that were basically admittedly there's two weeks left and things will probably change. But as of the end of this past weekend in Utah, they were saying, you know, it's, it's Shelley at number one. the second,

Brandon Hooten (24:29.187)
And the thing is too, for real quick, for the Atlas fans listening, I would argue the exact same thing, I'm glad you brought it up, for Pat Kavan, Brendan O'Neil. So this isn't like me hating on them specifically, this is a situation where they have two bonafide superstars on that offensive unit.

Neil Barrett (24:37.581)
He

Neil Barrett (24:44.044)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (24:45.507)
Michael Sowers doesn't have that TJ doesn't have like all these other players do not have that I also argued the same thing last year in the NLL with the bandits when they had the MVP and the offensive player of the year and I was like How can you be the MVP when you have someone else who's also an MVP finalist? you know both outstanding players and Dane Smith and Josh Byrne, but it's the same situation where it's like It does kind of matter and I feel like in all other categories all other awards. We use that logic like

Neil Barrett (24:56.27)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (25:13.915)
Even goalies, always bring up, how good is the defense in front of them? But then when it comes to something like this, all of a sudden people get on the timeline and say, well look, he jumped him an MVP. And I'm like, but you have another, you have a guy who's literally two points behind him on his team.

Neil Barrett (25:16.942)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (25:27.692)
Yeah, my thought is always whenever we talk about any of these awards, except for maybe defensive player of the year, because I don't know that stats rank as well. Like there are some guys that just don't get it. But generally speaking, when it comes to these awards, stats are kind of where I start. And if there's a big enough gap, it's like, OK, cool. You know, the difference between Connor Schellenberger and TJ Malone is big enough where it's like, OK, all right, we can we can rank.

Brandon Hooten (25:52.227)
Yeah. Yes.

Neil Barrett (25:55.53)
Shelly up there. whenever you're within, you know, three or so points, it's like, mean, I think other things, it's not just straight stats. I think there has to be some kind of balance here. I, right, exactly. There's nuance and we don't, we don't talk about it. You know, if, if Kieran McCardell was top five in points and, you, or, or I guess maybe top six and you had, you had

Brandon Hooten (26:10.276)
There's nuance for sure.

Neil Barrett (26:24.686)
Shelly, Pat Kavanaugh, Sowers, Brennan, basically everybody's partner was the top six. Then like maybe we could talk about it. And yeah, Kieran McArdle's not super far out, but I think it still is a relevant conversation for sure.

Brandon Hooten (26:42.35)
Yep, and one more thing too, will say two things really. The thing I will give Shelly over these other guys is he has the fewest turnovers outside of those top six, aside from Brennan. He has the best shooting percentage by far at 44 % and that's on him to deliver, which he is. And he has a decent spread between goals and assists. So I'll give him that. The other thing too that we didn't even talk about is there's some goalies this year that I would argue have played well enough to also win MVP. You know, on...

Neil Barrett (26:51.918)
you

Neil Barrett (27:02.542)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (27:09.848)
That's a point.

Brandon Hooten (27:12.384)
on the New York Atlas. Are we gonna put Shelly over Entenmann? You know, and I talked to you about this in the chat too. I don't know if he will win it, but like Brett Dobson has been incredible on a team that has been awful. You know, how do we then give credit to Dobson? Because I understand people wanna see like a winning.

Neil Barrett (27:26.402)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (27:32.994)
how a player impacts winning, but it's like he's doing everything he can. So does that bump him then in the MVP conversation? You know what saying? It's just, there's a lot of extra things to think about outside of just the attackman that I think could throw a wrench in even having Michael Sowers win MVP.

Neil Barrett (27:48.258)
Yeah. Another thing I think, at least for me, it really counts is, Shelly doesn't have a bad game.

He's been very consistent. His bad game was the first game of the season when he only had two points. But even that, he still had two points. I think everybody else on that roster has a game with zero points. Maybe not Brennan and Pat, but they probably have, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not gonna... Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (28:20.324)
Brennan for sure has had a two point game, I know that.

Neil Barrett (28:24.91)
But I do think that consistency comes, he's got three seven point games, like, you know,

Brandon Hooten (28:30.456)
Yeah, well he had the one that was all assists so it's like he's he's he's helping his teammates as well Which is why I'm like I'm not gonna be like upset if he wins it. I just think there's some nuance in the discussion of like Who you have on your team?

Neil Barrett (28:39.532)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. No, and that's a very good point. None of this is to say he can't or shouldn't win it. It's more of just like a there's there's more of a discussion than I think some people want to have right now. The second question out of this game after that very long question, if if you were to start your team, field lacrosse PLL team today.

Brandon Hooten (28:54.328)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (29:00.676)
So.

Neil Barrett (29:11.886)
Who would you start with at the faceoff? Trevor Baptiste or Joe Nardella?

Brandon Hooten (29:18.691)
Nadella.

Nardella.

Neil Barrett (29:21.984)
No, no, no thoughts.

Brandon Hooten (29:25.206)
No. mean, pull up the numbers. mean, he's a whole six, almost six points ahead of Baptiste. He's another almost five over TD. Like, he's been dominant. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (29:42.126)
But that's this year. He has been dominant, but that's this year. I'm just saying we're talking, you're gonna build a franchise and you're looking for 10 to 15 years of face-off.

Brandon Hooten (29:50.254)
Whoa, whoa.

Brandon Hooten (29:58.303)
starting now or are we doing all time? Like if we're building an all-time team that changes the answer. But if you're saying right now I have to pick from someone in the league I'm taking Nardella.

Neil Barrett (30:06.691)
Does it?

Neil Barrett (30:11.022)
Does it change the answer though? Let's say all time.

Brandon Hooten (30:13.036)
I think if, like if, if we're going all time, I don't have the numbers off the of my head, but I'm inclined to go Baptiste because of how dominant I think he was.

Neil Barrett (30:24.718)
Joe Nardella is 59.1 % all time and Trevor Baptiste is 64.7 % all time. But, but here's one thing. I think Joe Nardella,

Brandon Hooten (30:42.318)
Like I said.

Neil Barrett (30:51.34)
doesn't really have a weakness. I feel like we just flipped sides of the argument. Joe Nardella, I don't think there's anybody that you look at and be like, yeah, he struggles with them. Trevor Baptiste struggles with Joe Nardella.

Brandon Hooten (30:55.31)
Ha ha ha.

Brandon Hooten (31:05.976)
Right, which is why I'm saying if we're talking about today I have to pick someone to go start a rec league or whatever, I'm taking Nardella. I mean, like if, if, if Paul came to me...

Neil Barrett (31:12.43)
Rec League Listen you bring either one of these two guys to you bring either one of these two guys to rec league and you are dominating

Brandon Hooten (31:19.714)
Okay, was, that was, I didn't mean it literally, but like if Paul, if Paul Rabil and Mike Rabil came to me and said, Brandon, you are starting the newest PLL franchise. You get to pick any faceoff artist in the league as they currently stand to lead your team. I'm taking Nardella.

Because like you said, Nardella not only is good against everybody else, but he always takes care of business against Baptiste. For whatever reason. And that's not to say Baptiste isn't one of the best, because I still think he is a premier talent. But like, the only thing that he has over Nardella this year, literally, that in my opinion really matters, is like the two points that he has. And even then, I would rather my face-off guy win the face-off and get it to someone else to go get a point. Anyway.

Neil Barrett (32:02.51)
you

I do think that the other thing for Trevor is that he consistently puts up points, not a million or anything, but he consistently gets you, you know, five to 10 points a season. And I don't know that Joe puts up quite those numbers, not to say he will never put up a point or anything. So yeah, I don't know.

Brandon Hooten (32:06.648)
So.

Brandon Hooten (32:21.539)
That's fair.

Neil Barrett (32:33.386)
I'm literally playing both sides. There might even be an argument for a guy like TD Erlen, you know. His career is 60.9, technically not as long of a career, but technically that's better than than Joe Nardella.

Brandon Hooten (32:50.977)
Yep, but but then again then again that adds nuance because if we're starting a team then maybe do we have to say Hey, TD's been really good on a shortened time span. So maybe he has more years in him to play at that level You know

Neil Barrett (33:06.146)
I think the real conversation here, the debate here is you're gonna get their whole career, whatever that was. Say we're in some weird time machine and you go get.

Brandon Hooten (33:18.136)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (33:22.67)
You start today with Joe Dardella in 2016 or whatever it was when he started. You start today with Trevor Baptiste in 2018 or whatever it was that he started. You start with T.D. Erlen in 2021 when he started, but you get them tomorrow. So you get their whole career, but you get to start tomorrow. And I don't ask this in...

any way thinking that there is an incorrect answer, which is probably why we're flipping back and forth. I just think that the debate, the discussion is fun and thinking about like, you know, I, I know my Maryland guys are going to ride or die with Joe Nardella and he has certainly done more than enough to be the faceoff athlete of the year this, this year.

barring some insane collapse this year. I think it's his.

Brandon Hooten (34:19.949)
Yep, of course, I'm pretty sure we said the same thing last year and he didn't win it. I don't know what the difference was last year, but I remember seeing some discussion on the timeline.

Neil Barrett (34:25.742)
But last year was 1.3%. But that to me is where it comes down to like, okay, face-off percentage, that's close enough.

we can kind of call that a wash. And so you start looking at everything else. And I think that's where Trevor won. People want to say it's because he's more marketable, he's more famous, whatever. I don't know that half these guys vote and care about fame, but like when you look at it and you look at the points, Trevor Baptiste had more points. Trevor Baptiste had less turnovers. He had more ground balls. Like in every other statistical category,

Trevor won. I know that that Whipsnakes fans don't want to hear it, but I do think that when it's that close, and it ain't that close this year, but when it's that close, think more than just, especially with how much the PLL is pushing, you know, the 32 second shot clock after a face off and trying the whole idea of like trying to make a face off athlete more than just a FOGO, which

think it's ridiculous because they weren't FOGOs in this league anyway, but.

Brandon Hooten (35:51.617)
Yeah, no, I do actually like though that they're trying to make it more of like you can't do just one thing and get off the field. do, so that from that perspective, like I do really appreciate guys like Trevor, TD, who, I mean, actually one, two, three, four, five of these faceoff artists have two or more points. So that's pretty cool anyway, but I appreciate when faceoff guys can actually handle the ball. They can go score in addition to just facing off, but I don't think we can go wrong with any of those. Even if you said TD, if you look at TD's career, he's

Pretty consistent like these other guys kind of have a little you know peaks and valleys here and there but TD's been pretty Almost on a straight line his whole five-year career, whatever it is

Neil Barrett (36:23.406)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (36:30.56)
It is really funny though that you're like, like seeing that they're more than just FOGOs. And then you look at Joe Nardella, who is five points ahead, he had five percentage points ahead in terms of face-off percentage, zero points, zero points, five turnovers. Like he has been mostly a FOGO.

Brandon Hooten (36:39.842)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (36:47.713)
Yeah.

Well, well, and it was... No, for sure. But I'm just saying in general, was, initially I was out on the 32 second shot clock, because I was like, this is stupid, like, what... Well, and that's a bigger discussion. I'm not saying it's like the solution. I am saying I appreciate that it does put some urgency on if you win a clamp or whatever and you have a head start like...

Neil Barrett (37:00.471)
Still out.

Brandon Hooten (37:14.7)
Go make something out of it. Don't, you know, don't instead like in college is one of my biggest gripes. If you win a face off and then now you're just like, la la la, we're gonna pass the ball and you know, and it's, takes a long time to get into that action. Whereas the pro it's like, get to the action.

Neil Barrett (37:15.756)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Neil Barrett (37:29.464)
Come watch Duke.

Brandon Hooten (37:32.312)
I did last year when they lost 13 to 6 to Denver.

Neil Barrett (37:35.042)
Hey,

Brandon Hooten (37:40.503)
You

Neil Barrett (37:43.224)
Come on,

Brandon Hooten (37:43.416)
Hey, sorry, I had to. You don't have a PLL team, so I gotta take my digs where I can get them.

Neil Barrett (37:49.838)
What do you mean?

Brandon Hooten (37:51.63)
yeah, I forgot when the when the possible Indianapolis Chrome come out. hear Pat McAfee's interested.

Neil Barrett (37:56.34)
Speaking of things we should talk about.

Neil Barrett (38:03.884)
I don't know if Pat McAfee is really all that interested in the PLL, but...

Brandon Hooten (38:08.758)
I don't know, he's had Pat on several times, he's had Liam Ensignment on several times. I know he's been interested in the NLL as well as of late, so...

Neil Barrett (38:15.917)
Well...

Well, here's the one thing about that though. He is the Indianapolis guy. Where's Indianapolis? It's in Indiana. Where's Notre Dame? It's in Indiana. So I think that's part of that is that he got really involved with Notre Dame lacrosse and especially with the Cavanaugh's, I think even more specifically.

That being said, I'd love it. not, I am not at all saying it won't be him or it shouldn't be him. I would love it. I just, I know people are like, well he loves lacrosse. And I'm like, well, I don't know if he loves it, but.

Brandon Hooten (38:55.584)
I think it's one of those like, it's a new thing that he's like, it's exciting when you see it. So he's like, if he was a dog, he'd have his ears kind of perked up like, like, you know, what is this?

Neil Barrett (39:04.118)
And I do think he has a couple of guys on the show that are more lacrosse guys, which is part of the reason why I think it keeps getting pushed in the show is because those guys come up with like story ideas and stuff. But yeah.

Brandon Hooten (39:08.928)
Yep. Yep.

Brandon Hooten (39:18.264)
And they're very good at social media as well. Like Pat McAfee and all his boys, which is exactly what the PLL is good at. So you put those together and like, I think that'd be good. The only thing is that to my knowledge, they haven't been to Indiana. Was that correct? Yeah. so obviously like that initial, the initial investment obviously isn't going to be like, I'm buying a team. It's just going to be like, you know, whatever. But I think it could be cool down the line to maybe be like, Hey, I'm interested.

Neil Barrett (39:24.14)
Mm hmm. It could it could work for sure.

Neil Barrett (39:31.318)
No.

Now the middle.

Neil Barrett (39:40.344)
Right.

Brandon Hooten (39:44.514)
would you be willing to try it next year? And all of a sudden now you have Chicago and Indiana, maybe that get teams in the near future.

Neil Barrett (39:51.906)
when we've, we have seen that the non hotbed areas are really, really taking to the PLL. It is funny though, because when this whole thing broke out on Twitter today, some people were joking about, you know, Indiana Chrome. And I was like, cause for anyone who doesn't know, this is like kind of a joke that I have run with.

It wasn't a joke. It started not as a joke. It started as I really thought Carolina was going to get the chrome. We're going to go to Carolina. And I just had kind of convinced myself of that so much that that kind of I like I was like, oh, I'm going to be a chrome fan now. And like it and then it didn't happen. And it.

And then that's when I kind of really turned into a joke of like, oh, well, now I'm going to be the biggest Chrome fan ever because they're not even a team. And then and then I started buying merch because it was like, oh, I can like support a team without like supporting a team. I've had people reach out to me, someone I can't remember who it was. And it's probably someone who listens to this podcast. And I apologize. I had a bunch of people send me cards. Someone reached out to me. Maybe it was Matt Shaler. Maybe I was like, hey, you're the biggest Chrome fan. I know I have all these Chrome cards you want.

Brandon Hooten (40:46.69)
Yep.

Neil Barrett (41:09.282)
do you want them? And they sent me a bunch of Chrome cards and I didn't in the moment tell them like, hey, this is kind of a joke. Cause they were doing something nice and I was like, I, you know, I appreciate that. I appreciate that you thought of me and sure I'll take it. And,

Chrome has Duke ties, so like I think there were a couple of Duke guys that I got cards for and stuff. like it was a very nice gesture and I really did appreciate it and I didn't wanna lick the gift horse in the mouth, but I was like, oh, that's weird. But, oh, that's what I say, when the news started breaking, I started thinking like, man, we're gonna have a really awkward situation.

some people think that maybe they'll end up in Chicago. And I'm like, you know, I grew up a Chicago Bulls. I grew up a Chicago Bulls and a Chicago Blackhawks fan. I can probably get down with the Chicago Chrome. That could probably be legitimately my team. But if they end up in Minnesota, I've heard, I've heard Columbus. Obviously we're talking about this because of Indianapolis. I'm like, man,

Brandon Hooten (41:54.456)
That's what I think.

Neil Barrett (42:16.289)
I don't know what's going to happen when I have all this chrome merch and they land in Columbus and I'm like, cause if you know anything about me, I do not drive with Ohio state. worked for Nick Meyer. have done work for Nick Myers in Ohio state. I love you coach. You do a great job with that program. I enjoy working for you, but as a fan, I am not an Ohio state fan at all. So Columbus chrome would be a travesty too. Anyway,

Rambling now, let's move on to day two in Utah. We will start with the Waterdogs Chaos game the chaos... oh you you prepared for this the chaos sting the Waterdogs 15 to 14 in over time

Brandon Hooten (43:10.242)
That was so bad.

Neil Barrett (43:11.872)
so bad but but also great in a way

Brandon Hooten (43:14.37)
I respect the pun, but man.

Neil Barrett (43:19.308)
dad jokes are alive and I'm not even a dad. Anyway, this was an incredible game. So much fun. I can't even imagine what it was like being there.

Brandon Hooten (43:35.972)
Yeah, it was weird. It was like a roller coaster of like people were cheering for like both I couldn't tell if they were cheering for both teams or if there was just a very dedicated section of WaterDogs fans and a dedicated section of Chaos fans But the cheering was like was really really well done for this game probably helps when you have you know 29 goals 29 points rather score between the two teams But it was just it was weird because Philly decided

Neil Barrett (43:38.892)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (44:04.328)
They were gonna pull DeLuca, which I've talked to people who both agree with it and disagree with it. I hear both sides. I'm not gonna get into that. I don't really care Dylan Ward had an off game. Just call it what it is Jackson Eicher unbelievable. Kieran McArdle didn't even realize he had six points till after the game

So shout out to him for being just Mr. Consistent and always being, you know, by the way, he's never been a PLL All-Star, just to put that out there for anyone voting and listening. You should be voting him every single year. Owen Hiltz, incredible five points. Funny enough, like a lot of Water Dogs actually had a pretty good contribution in this game. After what I said earlier, it just felt like they were always just behind the eight ball. You know, at one point they were down, I think it was 13 to nine, I want to say.

Neil Barrett (44:36.109)
Yep.

Brandon Hooten (44:56.854)
And they really had to dig deep to come back. And then you see, you know, those two, two point goals happen. It's okay. We're back. And then they let in another one and they just couldn't get into a rhythm of like, Hey, we're better than this other team. and, and again, I just don't know what they need to do. Like even in overtime, I felt like, okay, Stathikas is going to win this face off and they're going go down and score. And it didn't play out that way again. and it just, it, it feels like for the second straight year, like

Neil Barrett (45:11.02)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (45:26.87)
The bounces are not going their way and they're not doing anything about it to make them go their

Neil Barrett (45:32.268)
Yeah. Yeah. First of all, to your point about the fact that he has not been a PLL All-Star last week, we didn't talk about this last week. He became I think it's one of only five people to break 500 points. He's just. Consistent, so so good and so consistent, just consistently there.

Brandon Hooten (45:54.573)
So good.

Neil Barrett (46:00.896)
and also consistently overlooked and people just do not understand how good he is and people with other podcasts not necessarily our friends but other podcasts were suggesting that CJ should just immediately replace Kieran McCardle and it's like you guys don't understand

Brandon Hooten (46:04.033)
Yep.

Neil Barrett (46:29.922)
what this Waterdogs team is and how well Keira McCardle and Michael Sowers work together and play off of each other. And they are so good together. And it is a surprise that Michael Sowers ended the game with only two points, even though I do think the defense is keyed on him. It is not a surprise that Keira McCardle ended with six, six points other than the fact that he did it somewhat quietly. It was four assists and you know,

most of the time assists are a lot harder to like really kind of track in your brain when you're just kind of watching a game and not actively taking notes or whatever. The other one that really kind of blew me away in this game is Jack Hanna. I thought he was again, so, so good. Just kind of whenever they need him steps up. But.

The decision to sit Matt DeLuca, I almost called him Ben DeLuca, the coach. Matt DeLuca, who no relation, I don't think, sitting at 56%. It didn't make any sense to me. There was the fluke too that yes, should not have gone in, but it's also not really his fault. Ben Randall was right in front of him. He didn't.

See it. was a late thing. It's a goofy play that yes, he should make a save but also you can't really hold against him very much either. And then there was a there was another one. I remember being kind of fluke. I don't remember what it was, but there was another one that I was like, I mean, I don't feel like you can really hold that one against him either. So arguably probably was closer to 60 percent in that first half. And then sitting him

I won't say it's why they lost, it didn't help. It didn't help. And I thought they had done some things really good in the first half. They had done a very good job of losing face-offs backwards and making the other team like pick it up and work the full link. The other team, like, I don't know who they were playing.

Neil Barrett (48:50.414)
The Carolina Chaos we're getting ground balls and having to work the full length of the field. I don't know it it was a weird game, but

It felt like the Waterdogs were cruising and then all of sudden they just, or sorry, it felt like chaos were cruising. It felt like 13 nine, they were cruising and then all of the sudden after not hitting it, that was their first two with year, right? I think is what they said.

Brandon Hooten (49:21.495)
it's something like that. They don't hit them at a very high clip.

Neil Barrett (49:24.428)
I think it's what they. Yeah, I think it was either their first or they had hit one like really early in the season and then had not hit one. I can't remember exactly, but then they hit two back to back in really bizarre plays. The first one just nobody stepped to the ball carrier whatsoever. Blaze lost his mind at his defense and then they came right back down and just, you know, they played slightly better defense on him, but but just

you know, hit it and suddenly

Brandon Hooten (49:56.161)
but the steal of the draft Jimmy Freehill.

Neil Barrett (49:59.758)
That's

Brandon Hooten (50:00.097)
bang that thing in the eye. I told the people on draft night, Jimmy Freehill is a dog. You gotta respect him.

Neil Barrett (50:06.99)
I mean, you got to respect him.

Brandon Hooten (50:12.087)
Clearly the chaos didn't, but you know the rest of us should because obviously I'm just glazing just because he's a Denver guy, but he's incredible.

Neil Barrett (50:20.802)
Obviously. But yeah, but they hit those twos and all of a sudden it was like a tie game and it was just like what just like you just thought this game was going to kind of kind of peter out and the the cast were just going to kind of cruise off and all of a sudden it was a tie game. And I was like, oh, and then chaos hits one. And you think, OK, OK, it was just the twos. They're going to go. then and then it wasn't, you know, Zachary a hit career.

He's Courier, isn't he? He's not French Canadian. He's just Canadian. Yeah, he's not French Canadian. He's just Canadian. So Courier, Zach Courier hit that goal with just over a minute left and it was a tie game. then I don't know about you. I know you're not really a WaterDogs fan, but because of probably OTB a little bit, you got a little connection.

Brandon Hooten (50:47.339)
Yeah, Currier. It's funny because he's Canadian, but it is Currier. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (51:09.761)
They were my unofficial team before the Outlaws came back. Only because they had Dylan Ward. So I cheered for them. But I wasn't like a... I'm a Water Dogs fan, you know what mean? But I do find myself like... You know. Especially now, because they have Connor Kelly who's a Man With A Player. Technically Zed Williams is there. Jimmy Freehill now. You know. So they do have some... Alex Stathikis. So they do have some guys.

Neil Barrett (51:20.296)
Water dogs fan. Yeah

Neil Barrett (51:34.284)
Yeah. Well, and and then of course, Tierney is the coach. So like you got connections now. I'm wondering going into that, that overtime, what, what were you thinking might happen?

Brandon Hooten (51:38.111)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (51:47.553)
Well, like I said a few minutes ago, literally, I think probably more than anything, tried to convince myself Stathicus was gonna win the face off and they were gonna go down and score because I mean, moments before, minutes before, they had all the momentum. Like I know that chaos went up by one and then they had to come back, but three of the last four goals in the game were Philly. you could, at least from where I was sitting on field, it felt like behind me, the momentum was just like,

Neil Barrett (52:02.478)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (52:11.278)
you

Brandon Hooten (52:17.438)
Okay, this is a water dog's crowd now. you know, and at the time I didn't realize that Justin Anasio was playing as well as he was, you know, I thought looking at the numbers, like they were pretty even. they were even 15 of 27 each, but, I just, I just felt like. Momentum's on their side. Like they know what's at stake right now. They're going to come down and score. And then it just didn't happen. Jackson Eicher just continued his domination.

And I mean, as soon as he shot it, I was like, that thing's going in. I, and I was, I was literally in line with him when he shot it. I was like, yeah, that's going. And then, and then I saw the replay and Dylan Ward is quite literally on the outside of the crease. And I, I want to be careful how I say this. I will defend Dylan Ward more than most because I've, I've literally watched him play his entire box career.

Neil Barrett (53:00.554)
Outside of the crease. Yep, I saw that.

Brandon Hooten (53:12.212)
Like start to finish and he's not finished yet obviously but so I'm going to defend him more with his high arc style than most people will because I do think at times especially in box it can help the argument and field that I've always argued against is Even if you're closer, so you appear bigger. I have a stick that I can shoot around you

And so when he is quite literally five to six feet away from the goal, I don't really know what that's doing aside from doing a disservice to him and his defense because now he has less time to see the ball coming at him. And that's exactly what happened on this play.

Neil Barrett (53:43.884)
Well, yeah, well, and and the the way that you beat the high arc is with ball movement and the the bigger field literally in field as opposed to box means almost any any pass is going to give you an angle to beat him because because of where he is so far out and

Brandon Hooten (54:13.374)
I love the fact that he stepped into the save. I just don't like that he like steps into the save. Like he did not need to scoot that far out into it. You know what mean? It's just, mean, great, again, great placement credit to Jackson Eicher, but.

Neil Barrett (54:13.646)
You

Neil Barrett (54:30.42)
It was it was a I actually really enjoyed the overtime period. thought like you. I thought when Alex Sathokis won that overtime face off, I thought, that's going to.

This is a problem. Like he's gonna, I thought kind of the same thing. I didn't think it until he won the face off, but when he won the face off, I thought, here we go. And then we, it actually went back and forth because CJ had a shot and then it went down and Joshua Wada had, actually, no, I take that back. Joshua Wada had a pretty decent shot. I think the shot I was thinking of was way earlier. And then it went back down.

Michael Sowers had a shot and Connor Kelly. And I gotta say, if in overtime, CJ Kirst, Michael Sowers and Connor Kelly all get a shot for you and you don't win the game, just wasn't meant to be, I guess. you know, those are, maybe you throw a Jack Hanna in there, but like those are probably the three guys.

Brandon Hooten (55:28.999)
Wasn't meant to be.

Neil Barrett (55:41.358)
you'd most want to, or maybe three of the four guys that you'd most want to be taking that shot. So, and then when it came back down, when Owen Hiltz picked it up, I was like, okay, what are we going to do? And then when I saw, I didn't know who it was until he started making the pass, but.

when I could see the guy moving on that far side of the field and I was like, if he hits this pass, I think it's game over. And then as the ball's in the air, I realized it was Jackson Eicher. And I was like, oh yeah, the game he's having, yeah, it's, I don't care who's in that goal. You could have taped up everything, but just about three inches, I think Jackson Eicher would have hit it the way he was playing. So, incredible game. We should,

Brandon Hooten (56:19.071)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (56:31.214)
I would like to say Jackson Eicher incredible. I think I don't know where he is. Here we go. That's what I was looking for. I'm not. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Fine. You do it. You what what what do you want to say? What do you want to say?

Brandon Hooten (56:41.075)
Nope, don't even do it. Don't even do it.

Brandon Hooten (56:53.108)
his

there's another rookie on his team that has been exceptional in fewer games.

Neil Barrett (56:58.976)
I'm not saying he's gonna win it. I'm not saying he's gonna win it.

Brandon Hooten (57:03.889)
I don't even think he's a finalist.

Brandon Hooten (57:09.063)
Because again, this is similar to the MVP talk. He has another rookie on his team that's played less games, has been more impactful arguably, has more points. I mean, I'm a fan of Jackson Eicher. Like, he's incredible. But...

I think voters are gonna lean that way with the other guys that are ahead of... mean, even think about a guy like Sam King, who we've talked about half-jokingly being the best attackman on that archers roster as a rookie. Are you taking a guy like Jaxon Iker over Hilton King before we even discuss McNany, Kavanaugh,

Neil Barrett (57:54.062)
I go back to, first of all, first of all, there are five finalists. So remember that. And secondly, I go back to what you did against expectations. And I think both Carolina as a team have

Far exceeded expectations. We're looking at them potentially being the number two seed in the West when we all thought coming into this season they were going to comfortably be not not that they wouldn't win a game or anything, but they were going to relatively comfortably be the worst team in the league and they may end up being the second best team in the West and

and the expectation of Jackson Eicher having been undrafted. And I know, I know that probably had more to do with his military obligations and whether or not people thought he would, he'd be able to be on the field much this year, much less next year or the year after that. Then it was necessarily a lacrosse decision. But still he was an undrafted guy.

that I don't think people was on people's radar coming into the season and he's there. I think he's got a very good shot of being a finalist. I agree, I don't think he's gonna win. I don't even think he's the most likely to win on his team, but I think there's a very, very good case for him to be there.

Brandon Hooten (59:34.367)
So you're saying that he's going to be a finalist over Mcnaney, Kavanaugh, Carroll, King, and Hilts?

Neil Barrett (59:43.084)
Well, he's only got to be a finalist over one of them.

Brandon Hooten (59:46.784)
So is he a finalist over any of them? Because the other thing you have to consider is you got, I mean look at the games. He's had two stellar performances and the rest have kind of been up and down. Now to our previous discussion, it doesn't help when your offense as a whole doesn't have the same talent. So I will absolutely put that caveat on it. My pushback on that would be Owen Hiltz is doing it on the same team, averaging four points a game.

Neil Barrett (01:00:17.454)
I would...

say right now he's just outside of those five but

Brandon Hooten (01:00:26.431)
So what would you have to do then to jump one of them? Okay.

Neil Barrett (01:00:29.366)
I think it's less about him. As long as he's playing consistent, I think it's less about him. I think Aiden Carroll is right there on the edge. And again, I think that also is somewhat about expectations. Him, it's more about the expectations of the Whipsnakes and just how bad they have been at times.

Personally, although I don't think it happens personally I'm less impressed with Chris Kavanaugh. I don't think I don't think Iker's necessarily better And it's not even hate because like I get it Chris Kavanaugh has been great but like the team is bad and Like we knew he was going to be Good and the fact that his team is just not like I don't know. I don't know

Brandon Hooten (01:01:24.487)
Well, that's what I was going to ask. My follow up was of the five that I named, I think Chris Cab would be the only one that I could say I feel like had enough expectation coming in that like he's meeting it. But like, like you said, we knew what he was going to be. Whereas like Sam King literally being the best player on their offense.

Neil Barrett (01:01:44.493)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:01:48.669)
None of us had that. I think Aiden Carroll has, at least to my knowledge, I was the only one to take him for Rookie of the Year. Like, he didn't have that expectation. I think you took Jackson Acker, I believe. Did you not?

Neil Barrett (01:02:02.066)
No, know because I didn't he wasn't on my radar early. I'm trying to think of who. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:02:02.536)
Was that, that wasn't you?

Brandon Hooten (01:02:08.795)
Okay. Well, either way, like he's like, you're talking about expectation. He's outperforming his and I think Owen Hiltz has also outperformed his in, you know, less games played. Unfortunately, Matt Trainor, I think is officially kind of on the outside. He'd have to have a crazy final two games, but I do wonder like, okay, well, hey, still a great pick, but I do kind of wonder like if...

Neil Barrett (01:02:28.77)
That might've been who I took.

Brandon Hooten (01:02:37.466)
if they're saying, their offense hasn't been good and yet here's two rookies that have been really solid for them.

Neil Barrett (01:02:45.346)
Yeah. Yeah, no, because I agree with you that I think

In a weird way, it's kind of harsh to be like, hey, the expectation for Chris Cavanaugh was here and he's he's here or or maybe here, but he's he's right kind of at that expectation. And to be like, that means it's not enough. I recognize that's probably harsh. But just when I look across the season, I haven't felt all that excited about what Chris Cavanaugh is doing.

Brandon Hooten (01:03:07.868)
Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:03:18.146)
which I think emotion plays into this, at least for me. Maybe the guy's voting, they will remove all emotion. Maybe that's the case. And then the reason that I have Aiden Carroll just kind of right there teetering is because he did have the two, the back to back one point games. He then did finish it up with a four point game and so.

If that wave continues and he kind of goes back up, obviously he's in, but if he slips back again, then I think, I think Eicher could, could definitely jump him. But.

Brandon Hooten (01:03:53.097)
Yeah. Well, and realistically, like we're talking about finalists. I think even of the finalists, there are a few that I don't think have a legit shot, unfortunately, which again, these, and this is what I both love and hate about these award discussions and lacrosse in general is just like, everyone is so good. Like it feels wrong to say like, yeah, this guy has no shot. All these guys should have a shot. You know what I mean? But I look at like,

Neil Barrett (01:04:02.476)
Have a real shot. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:04:15.33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:04:22.65)
Mcnaney is probably a good chance of winning it. I think Sam King has a really good chance of winning it. And I think honestly Owen Hiltz being as great as he's been with fewer games was also kind of propelled him above some of these other guys that will be finalists, unfortunately.

Neil Barrett (01:04:40.046)
I wonder if, I'm not saying it should, but I wonder if Owen Hiltz missing so many games will be held against him. I know in the games he's played, obviously he's been incredible, but sometimes when it comes to these discussions, they say, hey, you know, kind of like we were talking earlier, if you're around the same points, obviously the guy that played four games, you know,

they're going to say, hey, he played less games, you I'm not necessarily sure that that's always fair, but.

Brandon Hooten (01:05:09.982)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:05:15.488)
It's funny because we had the same discussion about McNany missing two games, know, and this is a situation where Hilts will have missed, if he plays the rest of season, three games. And it's like, he's literally third among rookies in points. And he's two points off of being tied for first in three less games.

Neil Barrett (01:05:23.917)
Hmm.

Neil Barrett (01:05:30.573)
Hmm

Neil Barrett (01:05:35.062)
The, I think the counter argument for that is defenses don't have tape on you. And when you only, when you only get to practice once a week, it's like, you know, I don't know. There's this whole like juggling act of all of it. I'm not saying any of it is, is right. I don't, this is one of those where I'm like, if you can make a logical

Brandon Hooten (01:05:51.059)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:05:58.772)
logically sound argument, I'm not going to fight you on it. think even if I think you're wrong, like I'm not going to push too hard because it's like, mean, like you said, so many of these guys are great. Like, you know.

Brandon Hooten (01:06:12.432)
I'm just glad we don't have to vote, because, ugh, I don't know that I can make decisions. I would send my ballot back blank and be like, sorry guys, I can't decide.

Neil Barrett (01:06:22.446)
Yeah, I know if you saw it because you were probably traveling, after the games on Saturday night, or maybe it was yesterday, I don't remember, I tweeted the top four goalies are within half a percentage point of save percentage. And it's like, I don't know how you're going to pull a goalie of the year out of this. And no matter who gets selected,

Brandon Hooten (01:06:34.762)
I did see this.

Brandon Hooten (01:06:42.439)
insane.

Neil Barrett (01:06:52.726)
you know, seven eighths of the league is maybe not seven eighths because there's probably a few goalies that just don't deserve, you know, Waterdogs probably. But. That's fair, that's fair, but but a good probably half the league is going to be like, what the hell, dude, our guy was was just as good or, you know, in their eyes, probably better. But like you said, I don't envy anyone who's got to make these decisions this year. I.

Brandon Hooten (01:07:01.406)
Well, they don't really have a bonafide starter right now either, which is... you know.

Brandon Hooten (01:07:15.176)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:07:21.944)
There's rarely a clear cut winner, but this year it feels like, like it's not, it's not between one or two guys in almost every single award. It's between like four or five, six guys in every single position. So let's move on to the last game of the weekend.

probably one of the most fun, probably the most fun game of the season. Maybe not necessarily the best game, one of the most fun. mean, it ended, let's just, the Outlaws beat the Archers 15 to 10. As we talked about earlier, this was an archers team without Grant Ament, without Tom Schreiber. And for a while it looked like the Outlaws,

thought they were just gonna win just by showing up. They were all over the place. They were crazy sloppy. It was, it was a pretty sloppy game all around. There were 45 turnovers in this game. What was it like being there? This was, this was 100 % booing. This, this whole crowd was in, they were

They were booing Brennan O'Neal every single time he touched the ball. He was returning that by playing incredibly. He hit two twos, had two one point goals and had two assists. Wait, is that right? Did I just make that up? I might've just made that up. The two.

Brandon Hooten (01:08:59.251)
No, I think he just had the two. no, he, no, he did. He did actually. had two one point goals, two two point goals.

Neil Barrett (01:09:05.942)
Yes, and I and no assist. That's what I messed up. I was like, wait a minute. That's more than six points. He finished with six points. Pack Havenel also somewhat quietly also had six points. had two goals and four assists. Yeah. What was this one like being there?

Brandon Hooten (01:09:09.094)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:09:24.689)
It was awesome. Second straight year. I still wish they would have changed the matchup and done this one in Denver next week, just so we can kind of, you know, return the favor. But.

Neil Barrett (01:09:32.27)
I was gonna say I'm a little bummed next week that we're not gonna get it. I get not wanting to do it in back to back weeks, but one of the bummers of having Utah and that was weird for anyone who was watching that. I don't know if you saw that. Maybe you were looking away, but anyway, let's move on. The...

I understand not having it back to back and having those two locations so close together, but I do almost wish we could have had Utah or Denver at the beginning of the season and had these two teams match up. And then, you know, next week or this past week or whatever was the other one and we got the matchup again. So, sorry, but other than that, I interrupted you.

Brandon Hooten (01:10:20.915)
They're good. Yeah, I mean it was... It was what you want to see essentially from both of these teams really because I thought Utah played pretty well considering they didn't have some of their players. Whether that is... Yeah, whether that's the Outlaws playing down or Utah playing up, you know, I'm not gonna say one or the other. I will say this game was lost for Utah in the middle of each quarter. I mean you look at...

Neil Barrett (01:10:33.602)
They looked hungry.

Neil Barrett (01:10:37.977)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:10:47.556)
at when they scored goals, scored at the beginning of the quarters, they scored at the end. That middle section, they were awful on that end. And I think too, like they let in four two-pointers from the outlaws.

Neil Barrett (01:10:57.73)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:11:01.643)
And I think, like, we know Brennan is incredible, but like, to give him two of them, you're giving the best shooter on the field two two-pointers. And then you go down and Ryan Tarifenko gets a two-pointer. And Jake Pacino gets a very big juice two-pointer. That wasn't just, we scored a two. It was, we need to reclaim the game. Because at that point, it was fairly close still. And I felt like this truly was a game of like,

Neil Barrett (01:11:16.28)
That's the one.

Neil Barrett (01:11:20.664)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:11:30.235)
Momentum shifting back and forth back and forth to where Dobson was playing well And like he was making saves and the crowd was getting loud for just normal saves that I was like, okay See, this is gonna propel them and it did for a while But it just kind of got to a point where like Pat cab was dishing the ball so efficiently that

Brennan was able to get open shots. You know, I know people love to say coming into this game that Graham Hasek was like, you know, Brennan's kryptonite. And I'm not denying that he didn't have two good games against him, but I'm sorry when Brennan is, you know, making you stop in your tracks and then eating a shot to get a goal and then screaming in your face about it, like you're gonna feel that. And that's exactly what he did all game long. And it was hilarious.

Hearing them boo him and then him pop off like that because as the game went on the booze got quieter and quieter and quieter and it got to a point where he scored that last goal and it was just like dead silent like It was clearly the end And again, I love utah fans. They're incredible. They're nice people as well From what I understand I was talking to some of the rough riders that were there. There was no like

Neil Barrett (01:12:33.201)
Yeah

Brandon Hooten (01:12:46.342)
bad blood or like anything bad said to them which is awesome so shout out to their fans but it was kind of funny seeing it go like start really high energy and then just kind of drop

Neil Barrett (01:12:58.001)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's why I say it was the most fun. It wasn't the best game, but it was the most fun. Like I said, it ended 1510. Like it it kind of ultimately wasn't wasn't all that close. It was there was a few minutes here and there and kind of the third where you thought, oh, maybe this is going to this is going to be pretty good. But but yeah, they kind of ran away with it in the fourth quarter. But I you and I talked

We've talked several times about it, but most recently sort of maybe second week of the season about Brennan's tendency to kind of fade, especially in a physical matchup. And how much of it I thought was really him choosing to do that. It wasn't that he couldn't beat a physical matchup.

At times, I think he has not been able to. know, when he was when he was lined up against Chris Fake for Duke against Notre Dame or Yale, he he definitely was kind of taken out of that game. And I think I think maybe the lesson, because he was that was he was pretty young.

And I think the lesson that he took out of that was like, I'll just kind of fade back and pull, you know, the Chris fakes, the Graham Hossacks, the big burly guy out of the D they'll occupy me and I'll just kind of pull them out. I'll recede out of this game a bit. And we can kind of play five on five, generally speaking. But earlier this season, I told you.

I think I can't remember who they were playing. Maybe it was maybe it was Chris Conlon. I don't remember who he was playing, but it was another big physical matchup and he didn't he didn't do amazing. I think he only finished the game with two points, but I saw him just continue to attack that matchup and go at it and take the ball and.

Brandon Hooten (01:15:00.046)
It was against Graham Hasek. It was he shot 0 for 10, two points against Graham Hasek. It was the game that at the end Hasek had to go guard JB10.

Neil Barrett (01:15:13.39)
Why did I think Graham didn't play that game? Maybe that was that last year?

Brandon Hooten (01:15:17.902)
I'm, hang on, let me double check, but I'm almost certain we discussed that because I remember saying it felt like he was, like Brendan was almost forcing things at one point just to get shots up.

Neil Barrett (01:15:33.358)
I thought it was was Graham as well but then for something I was like okay okay so then yeah so then it was then it was the Graham Hussie game because I remember being like that's a game he would have receded

Brandon Hooten (01:15:39.632)
Yeah, he played that game.

Neil Barrett (01:15:51.15)
And instead he just kept attacking it. And that was not something I had really seen him do. It's something I had wanted to see him do because I knew he could beat it. And even in that game, he was getting a step or two. He just wasn't hitting. He wasn't hitting shots. that's not to say Graham Hasek wasn't good on it. The crappy thing about being a defensive player is you can play 90 % perfect defense.

and that 10 % could be a six point game for the guy that you're lined up against. It's terrible that that's the thing. And then also I think you can play not amazingly and the guy misses all his shots and you look like a million bucks because he went 0 for 10 or whatever. But all that to say this.

Like we have talked about since that All-Star game, he has been loose. He has been free. He has, he has just kind of attacked. And I think we talk about how much Brennan O'Neill helps Pat Kavanaugh. I think that's the benefit of Pat Kavanaugh. Something about these two in the last few weeks for, for guys who were such rivals when, when it was Duke and Notre Dame, they look like best friends. They look so comfortable with each other. They look like such a,

complimentary pair for each other. I don't know, it's, it's really fun watching those two play together now and

Brandon Hooten (01:17:25.99)
Neil Barrett with a Pat Kavanagh compliment? Wow, coming around are we?

Neil Barrett (01:17:31.47)
I don't know that I'd say coming around. But also, I mean, you literally can't argue with his season.

Brandon Hooten (01:17:39.378)
No, no, for sure, I'm just giving you a hard time, because I...

Neil Barrett (01:17:42.4)
No, I know. And you're also not exactly wrong either. Like, let's be real. do. There's some bias there for sure. As much as I try to put all my biases to the side when we have these legitimate conversations, like.

Brandon Hooten (01:17:53.787)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:18:02.122)
Again, you just can't argue with what he's done this season. And even in the case where I think, like we talked about with Shelley and Teet, where I think Brendan O'Neill is maybe more the MVP of this team, in terms of actually winning the MVP of the award, like I get why you would say Pat Kavanaugh. Statistically, he's been better. So, you know, I can't argue with that, but...

weird note, I guess. JB10 looked awful. Awful. He had what was it? Was it five turnovers, I think? Five turnovers. And at least four of them were completely unforced. There was the one he was just cradling and the ball just flew out in front of him. There was

Brandon Hooten (01:18:42.96)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:18:47.557)
Yep.

Neil Barrett (01:19:01.132)
the one where he was kind of setting up to dodge and just fell over and dropped the ball. There was another one sort of similar. I know there was there was at least four of those were just completely unforced. Nobody. didn't get a check. Nobody. just was holding the ball and dropped it. And for a guy who looked so good.

I couldn't believe how bad he looked today. He had 30 touches and there was nothing to show for it except for five turnovers.

Brandon Hooten (01:19:40.912)
Yeah, but that's where it comes into play that like it's good that there are other guys that can pick up the slack because it I mean You know some other teams out there if he's doing that like the team's gonna struggle But I thought that they the rest of the offense really like rallied and was just like hey It's just one of those games. You know you can't you can't play well every single week and unfortunately to like when you when you've been as dominant

Neil Barrett (01:19:46.669)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:20:06.225)
as he has, for lack of better term. Then when you see this, it's like, oh, you're really out of character, which is fair to say. But I just think it's one of those games that just like, literally the bouncers didn't go his way five times. And how do you put the ball in the back of the net once or twice? Maybe it's not as big an issue, but because it's amplified that there was no goal or assist, it's like, ugh.

Neil Barrett (01:20:13.25)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:20:19.554)
Yeah, cuz

Neil Barrett (01:20:31.906)
Well, and not just that too, but he didn't really do anything. He only took three shots. So he had 30 touches, turned the ball over five times and only had three shots. So he was really just kind of out there as a body dropping the ball literally.

Brandon Hooten (01:20:38.779)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:20:49.081)
Yep. And I mean, the outlaws, or not the outlaws, the archers defense did a pretty decent job from what I could see of not letting him get an open runway. Every other game that he's played, except for, you know, that first or second game, he's literally been on like a speedway and just he's coming out of the box and he's beating you every single time. Whereas from this, from what I saw this game, it felt like

Neil Barrett (01:20:58.979)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:21:12.733)
Utah said we're gonna stop you before you even get ahead of steam So you can't just run all over us like you're gonna have to make a decision and that's where some of those turnovers occurred then and it's like You if you're gonna slow it down, you can't drop the ball in a literal sense. Like you gotta do something with it

Neil Barrett (01:21:28.942)
Yeah, yeah, but but to your point, they have enough guys that they can they can just kind of step up. And the stat that I saw that blew me away. Brennan O'Neill and Pat Cavanaugh combined for one hundred and thirteen touches. Pat Cavanaugh had 60, Brennan O'Neill had 53. That is insane. And all in one hundred and thirteen touches, they had

one combined turnover more than Jared Bernhardt did by himself. And to what you were saying earlier, Pac Haven also had five turnovers, but he literally had double the touches, six points and shot the ball 10 times. Like you were saying, you can have some turnovers.

as long as you're contributing other things. But when you're not, when you're not contributing anything else and you're so out of the offense that you're not even getting shots, it's like, what are we doing? But I think the thing that we have to talk about next is Sam King. Incredible for him. He finished the game on four points. He was the leading point getter for admittedly a not great

archers offense, but missing two of their biggest weapons. He really stepped up in ways that Connor Fields and Mack O'Keefe and all of their kind of bigger names, Ryan Ambler, those guys didn't do. And what I found really interesting is that he has already broken the archers rookie points record.

already, which was set by Grant Ament himself, who had a great, great rookie year. And Sam King has already beat it and he's got at least one game left. Looks looks like it could be only one game left, but we will see about that, I guess. I don't know. I don't know that there's really much else to talk about the archers in this game. Like you said,

Neil Barrett (01:23:47.662)
I thought they looked hungry. looked, know, Brian knows lax. He was talking to us. He thought the archers were going to win this game, which we all thought he was crazy, but he did. And several other people pointed out that the archers are usually at their best when they're up against the wall and they played like a team that was up against the wall and needed to.

They needed to win, but they at least needed to make a statement. And I don't know that they quite made a statement, but they did not look as bad as I think most of us would have expected.

Brandon Hooten (01:24:27.908)
No, and again, scores wise, was 11 to 9. To me, like, that's, I know the scoreboard says 5, so it looks like it was a blowout, but like, it was a pretty close game, all things considered. It just so happens that there was more 2s squared on one side than the other. And it begs the question on, you know, should they be shooting more when they're down, you know, three offensive players with Matt Moore not missing the rest of the year? Probably, but...

Neil Barrett (01:24:31.692)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:24:57.102)
They also only hit one so you can't risk possessions if you're not gonna hit a bunch of them but I do wonder like here in two weeks if that's an emphasis of just like hey we we need score differential if nothing else like let's let's start bombing twos

Neil Barrett (01:24:59.395)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (01:25:13.43)
Yeah, but they're going to need a.

They're gonna need some some help. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:25:21.55)
I mean, Chaos has minus 15 right now, Utah has minus 14. So not only does Utah need to win, Carolina needs to lose their last two games.

Neil Barrett (01:25:37.08)
It's gonna be interesting. So let's.

Brandon Hooten (01:25:40.046)
Yep. And realistically, they're also going to need California to preferably lose both their games as well.

Neil Barrett (01:25:49.976)
That is a whole nother thing because I really don't want them ending up with that number one pick, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Let's move on to your hometown Denver next week. The first game of the weekend is the Carolina chaos versus the Denver outlaws. I am not sure that anyone's going to give Carolina much of a chance.

going up against the Denver Outlaws in this game.

Brandon Hooten (01:26:23.352)
Red Legion will.

Neil Barrett (01:26:25.26)
Well, I mean, the Red Legion is always going to give the Carolina Chaos a chance. And to be fair to the Carolina Chaos, we said the Utah Archers were at their best when they when their backs were up against the wall. Carolina Chaos are at their best when nobody thinks they're going to win. So.

Brandon Hooten (01:26:44.504)
Yep. And I'll give them this as well. Like the last two weeks, the outlaws have looked beatable. In my mind at least. So if I'm Carolina, I'm coming into this feeling actually probably pretty good because no one really believes in us.

at that point, you have nothing to lose. Like you're, you're, you're sitting in a, in a bad spot, you know, point wise score differential wise, but like that just plays into, have nothing to lose. This team looks beatable the last couple of weeks. Like let's go in, you know, in their home town, in their, their homecoming as well. Like you want to spoil that.

Neil Barrett (01:27:15.842)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:27:20.43)
Right, right. Well, and I mean, like we have said all year, Blaze in that is always going to keep you in a game. It doesn't it doesn't really matter who you're playing. I shouldn't. It's hard to say always when they did get beat by 14 at one point this year, but that that anomaly aside, having Blaze in that is.

Brandon Hooten (01:27:39.216)
Most times.

Neil Barrett (01:27:47.187)
enough to keep you in games pretty much all the time so

Brandon Hooten (01:27:51.172)
And they have a good defensive front in front of him too, that they're not gonna give up easy looks all too often. and again, if Bernhardt doesn't contribute, if some of these other guys struggle, this could be a very close game.

Neil Barrett (01:27:57.538)
Yeah, for sure.

Neil Barrett (01:28:07.426)
Yeah, I don't think that any of us expect Carolina to win though. I think we don't generally do pick-ems, but I think this would be one where we would fairly comfortably say the outlaws should win this game. So.

Brandon Hooten (01:28:26.382)
Yes.

Neil Barrett (01:28:28.876)
Let's move on to game two of the weekend where the Philadelphia Water Dogs will take on the Boston Canons. The Canons were off this week, so we didn't we didn't see them. I would say the last time that we saw them was them losing to the the outlaws. And. I don't know that they looked amazing. Obviously, they scored 17 goals, so.

I guess that's pretty good, but.

I don't know. But then again, the Waterdogs didn't exactly look amazing this past week either. So.

Brandon Hooten (01:29:14.499)
Yeah, it should.

Neil Barrett (01:29:14.658)
Both teams kind of against the same team too, it should be said. The Canons lost to the Chaos two weeks ago and the Water Dogs lost to the Chaos this week. So similar competition there in terms of trying to project forward. Where are you at with this game?

Brandon Hooten (01:29:33.201)
I honestly don't know. I thought Dylan Ward was in line to start prior to this Utah weekend because DeLuca was starting. So in my head it was going to be DeLuca this week, Ward in Denver. But then Ward played 70 % of that game. So now does DeLuca play? If DeLuca plays, I think they have a better chance of beating this Boston team. But they just have a lot of questions around them. And I think coming off of rest for Boston, like...

They know they need to perform and again, like I said earlier, they have three games left most of any team in the league. So while they do have a little bit of cushion, it starts this week with you need to win this and get onto your homecoming and win those. So I lean Boston just because I think on paper they're probably better, but

It doesn't shock me just like if Philly comes out and plays well because we've seen them play well And there's a reason that they've split their games. It's not like they're a bad team They just have these really high highs and these really low lows unfortunately

Neil Barrett (01:30:30.062)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (01:30:38.52)
Will CJ have more points than he had this past week?

Brandon Hooten (01:30:43.736)
Yes. He's just gonna keep getting better. He's warming up to the pro level. He'll be fine.

Neil Barrett (01:30:52.07)
I actually thought he looked fairly good in the midfield this week.

thought he just kind of couldn't get his shots to drop, but I liked where he was taking up. I liked the dodges he was making and he played this week more like a midfielder. Whereas last week he was picking up the ball a lot and carrying it down to X and trying to dodge. Whereas this week he looked more like a a Jack Hanna kind of picking the ball up top, making a move and trying to make more of a midfielder kind of play quote unquote.

And I'm like you, I would tend to agree, you know, not that it's saying much to say, he'll outperform one point. But I do think maybe he ends up with two goals, maybe an assist, maybe as a three point game or something. Maybe he goes off for all I know. You know, I don't want to be, listen, the CJ Karst fans are real and I don't want, I don't need you guys coming at me being like, he's going to have six. I'm not saying he won't.

I'm just saying I do think I agree with you that I think he goes for more than one like he did this past week. Ultimately, though, I think I think the cannons win this game. Barring. Barring Michael Sowers having a six plus point game, I think I think the Boston Canons win this game and head into their homecoming weekend on on a bit of an upswing.

I think. Oh, let's move on to the third game of the weekend where the New York Atlas will once again take on the Denver Outlaws. This time on only about 17 hours of rest. It was already going to be a really tough game, obviously, for the Denver Outlaws going up against the best team in the league, I think is fair to say.

Neil Barrett (01:32:58.83)
They technically have the same record. They're number one in the West, number one in the East. But I think given how these games have played out over the last few weeks, I think it's pretty safe to say that the Atlas are the best team in the league, whereas Denver may be the hottest team in the league. being the Denver guy, being that this game is in Denver, how are you feeling?

Brandon Hooten (01:33:22.989)
I already wasn't feeling great because you're playing, I mean, you and I have said this for several weeks now, you're playing the best team in the league on a back to back. It was already going to be bad. And then to see them get, they call it flexed. I don't know that I'd use that word because that has a positive connotation to it. They definitely got the shorter end of the stick here, you know, bumping that game up by seven hours. That's a massive jump to play the best team in the league. So.

I'm leaning the away team here. I mean, but the problem too is like, it's technically 17 hours, but it'll be like 14 hours from end time to start time. and I recognize that like there have been some scheduling kerfuffles, that's a good word right there, throughout the year.

Neil Barrett (01:33:58.85)
Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:34:06.094)
Yeah, yeah, it's 17 from start to start.

Neil Barrett (01:34:16.191)
Her kerfuffles.

Brandon Hooten (01:34:17.699)
for other teams. not saying that they're the only team that's dealt with this. I am saying they're the only team that has been flexed into this position. And I don't like it. So. But, but, I understand you want this game on ABC, the number one in the East, number one in the West. Both teams still need to show up. So I don't think it'll be a blowout by any means. Maybe it is. I don't personally think it will be. But I do struggle to see an outcome where Denver plays

Neil Barrett (01:34:20.898)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:34:47.023)
really well. Thankfully, they already have playoffs locked up and champ series locked up. But you still want to get a win in front of your home crowd, preferably two.

Neil Barrett (01:34:55.96)
Yeah.

Yeah, I...

It's tough because I agree with you. It's not a good position. It's it's not. don't I'm not sure that it's going to work the way that they think it is. I understand the thought process of like number one versus number one. You know, being a prime time, like linear game, maybe I shouldn't use the term prime time, but because I think it's at like one o'clock in the afternoon, but.

I understand the idea of like wanting to get that onto linear television, but at what point

Neil Barrett (01:35:38.912)
At what point does does that not is that not the best version of the game to put on TV? because you you are dealing with one team who's going to have played a game less than 17 hours earlier against a very good Carolina chaos team who's trying to wrap up a very good and physical

Carolina Chaos team who's trying to wrap up second place. They're trying to hold on to where they are in the Western Conference. You could you could honestly argue that that neither New York or Denver have really much to play for other than technically the bye I think is it's technically in play. But but for Denver having the bye could actually end up being a problem for them because

If they get it, they won't play for a month.

So, so you could, you could honestly argue that, that not getting the bias better for Denver. So these, you're to have one team that's arguably the best team in the league playing a team that played a game less than 17 hours ahead, who also arguably would be fine with the loss. It is one of those things that like makes sense why you flex it, but also

feels like you're going to end up with a worse game, which I feel like they do all the time. I feel like every time they flex a game into a linear TV spot, it ends up being a worse game. But for the game itself, like you said, I think it was, I think it was already going to be tough. was already likely to be, I think the Atlas were going to be the favorites. If this was, if this was the one game this week, you know,

Neil Barrett (01:37:38.254)
Even with it being in Denver with with everything going Denver's way, like 100%, I think they still likely would have been the underdog. And everything that we've talked about just kind of pushes them more and more and more into that underdog role. So again, I don't think it's any stretch to say that Atlas are probably going to win this. think maybe the best hope is that.

Outlaws come out and they want to prove something kind of like the archers did and they're just hungry and They they're just fighting for everything the good news is when this game's over Assuming you win it you ain't got nothing to worry about for a month. You got it You can rest you can take all the break you need for a month so maybe

Brandon Hooten (01:38:24.684)
Yep. Well, this is the end of their regular season. I just realized that too. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:38:31.072)
Right, right. That's why, because they won't play next week, then I believe there's a buy, like the league is off for a week, I think. Then there's the first round of the playoffs, and then I think there's another buy. So that's why if Denver gets the buy, they won't play for a month. So it's really...

Like I said, hopefully that's what happens. I'm just not really holding my breath. I'm not really-

Brandon Hooten (01:39:03.118)
Yeah, I think next year they're gonna have to probably eliminate first and last week buys. Cuz I think it causes this type of thing to work. I think it hurt Philly a little bit. I know they started off hot, but I think it does hurt to not play that first week. And then I think it's gonna hurt a team like Denver in this situation where now they're not playing for literally a month.

Neil Barrett (01:39:11.651)
Yes.

Neil Barrett (01:39:19.96)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:39:26.232)
Yeah, I have a little inside baseball. I have a whole conversation discussed about changes in the PLL from top to bottom that I want to do. But it's a it's a after season kind of conversation when we don't have tons of games to go through every single week with.

All of that being said, let's move on to the last game of the weekend where the Maryland Whip Snakes will take on the California Redwoods. This is kind of. Kind of dumpster fire versus dumpster fire as far as I'm concerned, I don't know. I think perhaps the Whip Snakes are in a slightly better position because I think you can see how they can get out. think they're. Maybe not massively better, but I think they're they're better kind of from top to bottom.

And I think, I think we have seen the, we saw the brutal print last year, just like we talked about, we saw the blueprint last year. We have seen the blueprint this year. If they let these young guns run and do their thing, I think they are in a better position than the California Redwoods are right now. I think the California Redwoods have a ton of talent. They can win this game. Both of these teams are relatively even in my mind.

I just think the redwoods, the whips, the snakes, excuse me, are just slightly better put together right now.

Brandon Hooten (01:41:03.266)
Yeah, I won't argue anything. This is a coin flip game for me. I literally might actually flip a coin this week just because I don't... Like... They're in like the same spot in my mind of just... They both need the win. And they're... They're both in like a good position to get that the third playoff spot. Funny enough, even though one has a positive score differential and one has a negative. But they're in that same kind of...

Neil Barrett (01:41:15.426)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:41:32.32)
situation of just like you're you're kind of far enough ahead that you can Not not take your foot off the gas you need to play well But I'm just saying like you don't need to be the best of the best the only downside for Maryland is that Boston has three games So they can make up that 11 goal differential pretty quickly in three games So

Neil Barrett (01:41:51.213)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:41:53.422)
That's something to maybe monitor. I think probably that will propel Maryland to play probably a little bit harder because I think I think it would be easier for them to catch for Boston to catch up to Maryland than it will be for Utah to catch up to California and then possibly Carolina to catch up to California if the woods end up jumping the chaos. So either way, I'm excited for the game. I think it should be a pretty close one overall. It's just going to be I just don't have to read on it like at all.

Neil Barrett (01:42:21.964)
Yeah, no, I'm with you. I think, like you said, I think a coin toss is a very good way to put it. I'm going to lean ever so slightly towards the Whip Snakes. I think their defense is a little bit better. I think I think they also have the blueprint to win. I think the Redwoods are still kind of figuring out. It's kind of so far their wins have come when like

one guy has taken over, but it's never the same guy twice. So, you know, if Andrew McAdory or Dylan Malloy or Chris Kavanaugh or whoever steps up, can they win 100 %?

it's just not a kind of defined blueprint. Whereas I think, I think Maryland has that blueprint of like TJ Malone is kind of your, your guy and everyone's kind of supporting him. And again, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to lead the team in scoring Levi Anderson can do it. Lots of Brad Smith can do it. Like they have guys that can do it, but just let those guys kind of do their thing. Before we get out of here, let's circle back to that NLL conversation real quick and

I'll just let you start and go. know you got some stuff to say.

Brandon Hooten (01:43:39.406)
yeah, essentially, so, okay, so there's, there's, there's two things. One is, we'll start with positive. Sounds like the Rochester Nighthawks are on track to have an owner.

Neil Barrett (01:43:51.374)
By the way, I saw some people saying that it could be the Indianapolis Nighhawks. I wanna see it.

Brandon Hooten (01:43:55.874)
That's what I said. I said that in our chat. said, I think I said Indianapolis Nighthawks, something rather, I was like, this makes sense, because Pat McAfee has said recently that he is on board with Fox Lacrosse. So I said that half jokingly, but that would be cool. But that's great news. Sounds like if the NLL figures out the CBA, there will be a team in Rochester. But as far as like what's being said from the Toronto Rocks owner, I...

Neil Barrett (01:44:13.326)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:44:24.853)
I understand that he's an owner and he needs to, he's negotiating and he needs to play his hand and get the best deal he can. I am not on board with going on podcasts and essentially trashing the process and saying that your players don't know what they're talking about. They don't know how much it costs to run the league, how if it's not done in a month, like let's just take the year off and how you're going to have your phone on DND being in Florida. And that's, that's nearly a direct quote by the way.

Neil Barrett (01:44:49.058)
you

Brandon Hooten (01:44:53.919)
all of everything I just said. So, and it sucks because that's a bad look for the sport in general. Because it makes you look like you're not a serious entity at all. And it's frustrating when it's only one owner doing it repeatedly. Again, he's entitled to his feelings, 100%. I'm never gonna say he shouldn't feel that way, because he is bargaining. But to double down and literally say you're just gonna give up if it doesn't get done in a month.

Neil Barrett (01:45:09.933)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:45:20.525)
It's ridiculous. and honestly, if you're gonna keep talking about how no one knows how much it costs to run the league, maybe you should put that out there. Let's make it, let's be transparent. If it's a situation where you're saying, it costs too much to fly or whatever, which I saw someone on Twitter this week bring up the fact that airlines are kind of doing some sketchy things that could be causing problems. I'm fine with that. Two years ago though, the NLLs made unified standings.

And I remember having a conversation with people at ball arena in Denver about this and about how it's going to cost a lot more to fly these teams now literally across the continent. You're going from San Diego to Halifax and vice versa now. And instead of doing that once every few years, you're doing that every single year, you know, back and forth, that type of stuff. Let's go back to conferences. Let's get rid of this, make it easier. Let's like make it cheaper on travel. Let's do all that. So this, this complaining on podcasts about how well the players don't know.

Educate the players then if they really don't know please because I'm tired to hearing about this every time he speaks about how this is This this World War three as he put it the first time he was on the podcast. It's ridiculous You're making the league look bad and making the sport look bad. You're making yourself look bad and I saw people defending him and what he's saying you're entitled to feel how you how you want to feel but I'm kind of tired of us shooting ourselves in the foot as a sport as a league whatever like it's ridiculous

Neil Barrett (01:46:26.038)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:46:43.329)
Let's figure out the CBA. Players want to play. Owners want to make money. But saying that players won't care until they miss game checks, you're just insulting the players. Like, it's ridiculous. I recognize that he probably doesn't need this league to make money, but like, come on, man. Like, let's cut out the childish BS that continues to come out week after week and just get on with it. Let's get a CBA. Let's play a season and have fun. So.

Neil Barrett (01:46:55.916)
you

Neil Barrett (01:47:10.103)
Yeah, would The the players don't know The inner workings of the financial that's fairly standard CBA stuff. The players usually don't know like that's

That's fine. That's fair. But so much of what he said seems to go beyond the kind of like black and white. The players don't know what we're dealing with, blah, blah, blah. And the stuff about, you know, sitting at the beach, the cold calloused, I don't really care is where I have the problem. Even, even from somewhat removed from the NLL. It's like, dude, what are we doing? You know, I,

We're all pretty used to like Jerry Jones and you know, other big time owners who, know, they want, they want to make more money off of the product. They don't ever want to give up more of their slice of the pie. I get that. And I do think that there is an element of like the players don't know what it costs to run a league and that's fair. But like you said, there's so much more that's being said that just is

uncalled for and cold and it really makes me feel like he doesn't really care about this league and about the sport and and it's just a money making venture for him and if you and and like you said he doesn't need this league to make money so if you guys want to shut it down fine cool great and that's kind of where I have a problem with what he's said publicly and it and it is it's

It's crazy and.

Brandon Hooten (01:48:52.81)
It's crazy that he did it twice, that he doubled down on it. After the first one, there was enough backlash in the lacrosse community that he should have said, maybe I shouldn't say this. And again, like I said, like Zach Currier and Reid Reinhold, who are president and vice president of the NLLPA, are very smart people. Okay. They're, very polite people. They're very smart people. I can tell you very much if you said to them, Hey, this is what we're kind of paying for flights, hotels, equipment, whatever. They're going to look at that and go, okay,

Neil Barrett (01:48:54.892)
Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:49:12.386)
Mm.

Brandon Hooten (01:49:23.08)
Here's what we're willing to then give up vice versa. Like they're smart people. They're not going to like try to rip off the billionaire owners in any way. So to continuously like almost insult them and be like, well, they just don't know. And like, see like you're above them. And then to say like, well, we're not having conversations about this every day. It's not like we're on meetings every week. I'm like, that's you don't put that out. That is bad PR. Like, literally, like why would, why would you say that? That's truly, it's just insane to me that.

Neil Barrett (01:49:45.484)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:49:52.928)
This is like what's occurring. Imagine if, if Jerry Jones, as many outlandish things as he says about the NFL and his, his own team. And he said some things recently that are crazy. Like imagine if he was just like, yeah, well the players can hold out. It doesn't really matter. Like I'll be on my private beach house. Just, you know, like, like what that is, that's literally insane. And the fact that he said it twice and went first he's hot. He said it was going to be world war three. And then now he took it even a step further and was like,

Yeah, I don't even really care. Like it is what it is. It's so stupid. And for an owner of one of the premier teams in the league, like the Toronto Rock, that's what bothers me more than anything. It's not like this is Panther City who was literally in it only to make money. And then it didn't make money in there. Like we're out. That's one thing. This is a, you've been around forever. Like let's think before we speak on these public forums and let's work with the NLOP8 to get a deal done. Like if nothing else, like

Neil Barrett (01:50:26.733)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:50:30.253)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (01:50:39.725)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:50:51.228)
He strikes me as a guy that does care about the game of lacrosse. I mean, he owns a senior aid team in Toronto as well. Like he seems to at least care about it to a degree that in my mind should stop him from saying these things publicly. It's essentially where I'm at.

Neil Barrett (01:50:54.712)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Neil Barrett (01:51:04.141)
Yeah.

One, I think good piece of news is that as scary as some of the things that he said are in terms of like what the future of this league looks like this coming year. And to be fair, free agency is supposed to start in what two days, three days, something like that.

Brandon Hooten (01:51:23.141)
I think it's about a week right now, want to say. Today's the 28th.

Neil Barrett (01:51:26.108)
I thought, I thought Adam Levy said it was like four days ago, like yesterday. Anyway, regardless, right. We're coming, we're coming down to it and we have no idea what's happening with Rochester. Although there have been some good reports. We have no idea what's happening with the CBA. We have no idea. There's

Brandon Hooten (01:51:30.676)
I don't know. It's soon though. It's very soon.

Neil Barrett (01:51:48.41)
still rumors that there are at least there's at least one other if not several other teams that could potentially maybe pull the plug.

Brandon Hooten (01:51:59.243)
Which I have no idea where that's coming from by the way. I don't have sources, let me make that very clear. I have zero sources. like, Philly draws like 5 or 6,000 people a game. They're a sports town, okay. Albany has done everything they can and they have been continuing to increase attendance. okay, Ottawa was in their first year and now you're telling me there's a report that they might not last? Like, like what? They've been drawing several thousand people.

Neil Barrett (01:52:28.43)
you

Brandon Hooten (01:52:29.748)
to all other games and they're in a new market. Like let's pump the brakes on wherever these reports are coming from. It's insane to me.

Neil Barrett (01:52:38.126)
Well, I was going to say that even kind of given all of that and, and these comments from the rock owner, I I'm also hearing a lot of other reports that are saying he's just kind of talking. They're actually a lot closer, uh, than, than what's kind of being pushed and something is going to get done. So hopefully

Brandon Hooten (01:53:03.48)
And I've told you guys in the chat, do think a CBA gets done. But that to me is almost worse. If you're actually close on a deal, why are you then going and bad mouthing everybody? Cause now you're doing it just to do it. Like that just, that almost makes you out to be the villain. Like literally, just because you want to be.

Neil Barrett (01:53:07.821)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:53:12.98)
Mm-hmm. Just to do it, yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:53:20.334)
Yeah, but hopefully that gets done. Hopefully we're not missing any time. And if we do, it's very minimal. For everyone's sake, we all want the NLL to be around, but definitely something worth kind of keeping an eye on and talking about, I think, as well.

That is going to do it for us, I guess. Unless unless did you get it all out? Do you need.

Brandon Hooten (01:53:49.012)
Yeah. No. That's good way to end it. I just, I just, need to say that, because I'm kind of tired of it. Like, it's just so childish. It's ridiculous.

Neil Barrett (01:54:01.058)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, then that is enough from us. We will get out of here on that. As always, I am at Neil Barrett on Instagram, Twitter, I've pretty much everything I am that Brandon is at Hoot Sports Media on Instagram and Twitter. Also, if you have any kind of sporting event and you need a photographer and it's in the Denver area or you have the budget to fly him somewhere.

Brandon Hooten (01:54:30.783)
Yes, I will travel.

Neil Barrett (01:54:31.222)
Hit him up, hit him up because he is great. you did not, please go check out his photos, check out outside the boxes photos. They were really seriously fantastic. the one of the one of Hilton Eicher celebrating is like, so good. So freaking good. And I'll tell you, because we haven't talked about this, I reposted it.

Brandon Hooten (01:54:49.931)
That was sick.

Neil Barrett (01:54:58.79)
and the amount of traction that thing got from PLL people. I was like, I was like, okay.

Brandon Hooten (01:55:04.487)
believe me. Hey, shout out to Hayden Lewis. I saw he used that photo. The PLL account retweeted my photo of Baptiste and Nardella. Shout out to them. The Red Legion liked and shared everything. shout out. Anyone that shared my stuff this week, very much appreciated. It was a very good week for engagement. And sometimes we get lost in engagement, but it does feel good to see this stuff get recognized.

Neil Barrett (01:55:10.604)
Yes. Yup.

Neil Barrett (01:55:19.041)
Okay.

Neil Barrett (01:55:27.148)
Yes, yeah.

Yeah. And it and seriously, it's deserved. it great stuff. But let's get out of here with that. As always, you can catch the show at run out pod on Instagram and Twitter as well. Please come interact with us if you liked anything that you heard on today's show. Like, subscribe, comment, share while those things they do.

Brandon Hooten (01:55:37.269)
Thank you.

Neil Barrett (01:55:59.098)
so much for this show and helping us continue to put it out week in and week out. With that, we will sign off and as always, we'll catch you in the comments.

Neil Barrett (01:56:11.628)
I can't find the stop button. Where is my mouse?