The Best PLL Championship Ever?

Neil Barrett (00:05.302)
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the run out. I am Neil Barrett. He is Brandon Hooten. Thank you to all 25 of you who are here with us. We are a day late. That's on me. That's my bad. But we have so much to talk about this week. The Atlas finally wear the PLL crown. The WLL gets a full season. There are big, big changes in Toronto and we never doubted the Chiefs, right?

Never? Nope, never. Not over here. But before we get into all of that, Brandon, had the week off, kind of had the week off last week. We put out an episode, but it was recorded previously. So this is the first time you and I have sat down in about two weeks now. What will we get into?

Brandon Hooten (00:36.737)
Not over here.

Brandon Hooten (00:54.434)
Just busy season right now. High school season's kind of picking up some business, which is good. It's tiring, but it's fun, so it's worth it. then had a week off from college last week, but had a Rapids game, so that was fun. And then back to college this week, so kind of dual events the last couple weeks, but it's been fun.

Neil Barrett (01:16.294)
I like it, I like it. was my birthday this past weekend and then it was my wife's birthday, birthday?

Brandon Hooten (01:26.134)
I was gonna say, I was so confused, I was like, you said it's your wife's birthday and I was like, wait, I thought it was yours. And I was like, wait, but I don't know when it is, so I didn't tell him. And I was like, I was so confused. And then I saw your post about the ion heads and I was just like, okay, so it was, and I was out of the loop.

Neil Barrett (01:46.362)
Yeah, so my birthday was Friday. Saturday, my wife threw this huge party, invited like everyone we know in the state of New Hampshire. It was a it was a wrestling themed birthday party. And then my wife's birthday, because mine's the 12th, hers is the 16th. So hers was last night. So that's why we're a day late, because we were supposed to record yesterday and have it out today. And we had to push it back a day because

Brandon Hooten (02:00.6)
Very cool.

Neil Barrett (02:16.334)
I had to go celebrate my wife's birthday last night at a Mexican restaurant. She doesn't even really like Mexican.

Brandon Hooten (02:21.686)
What? That's... Wow.

Neil Barrett (02:25.272)
Listen, it's a whole thing. I had plans. It was just going to be me and my wife. It was going to be awesome. And then at my birthday party on Saturday night, her sister just like came in and took over and like they made plans. And I was like,

But yeah, it was a thing, but she loves her family. So, you know, I can't imagine a better way for her to have spent it, even if it was at a Mexican restaurant and she doesn't love Mexican food. But anyway.

Enough about my birthday and my wife's birthday and everything. Let's get into the PLL Championship. First things first, before we even talk about the game itself, I wanted to ask you how you felt about kind of the run up to the game. And the reason I'm asking before you answer, we talked earlier this season, we talked at the beginning of the PLL season about how the

The build into that week one was not the same as it had been in previous seasons. Coming into week one, I wasn't as excited and having as much fun as I have in previous seasons.

And normally by the time we hit the championship, feel like we're kind of winding down a little bit. And I felt like this year was the opposite. We didn't have that great lead into the beginning of the season, but this was like the most amped I think I was for a championship in the PLL's existence, other than maybe the very first one, just because it was so new and fresh and I was going.

Neil Barrett (04:06.692)
But yeah, something about this one felt there. I don't know if it was because it was one versus one or, you know, all the big star names or what, but for me, it felt different. I was wondering how it felt for you. Obviously you had a team in it, so that's a little bit different.

Brandon Hooten (04:18.923)
Yeah, firstly, sorry for the noise in the background. We have guests, so there's like things flying. I wasn't sure if it picked up on audio or not, but in regards to the question, yeah, it's hard for me to tell just because like, like obviously me being connected with the Rough Riders, like there was a lot on that front where like we're discussing different things about the game. We had people going out there, you know, watch parties happening. So like, it's hard for me to be like, yeah, it definitely was. Because obviously for me, yeah, I'm, you know, dealing with like

actually setting things up and you know all that but I did feel like on socials it was it was pretty well done especially for having the two week gap you know sometimes you worry about like you have a week off like not that people you'll lose viewers but like it's on you know an NFL Sunday like like someone like me especially like the Broncos literally played you know an hour after the outlaws game ended so like you know you have a lot of people like me who probably would prioritize watching the 11 a.m. or 1 1 p.m. games for Eastern

Neil Barrett (04:57.614)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (05:05.573)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (05:19.584)
time games like in over the PLO, but I felt like the PLO did a good job of putting out not only videos, hyping the literal game, but they had the event at the World Trade Center. You know, photos, I saw a lot of posts from players, colleges as well, a few of them. So yeah, I thought it was pretty good, but again, we're more tapped into it like we're paying attention, so.

Neil Barrett (05:29.648)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (05:44.452)
Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought up the two weeks though, because that was something I thought about and kind of forgot to mention that especially after the two weeks between the end of the regular season and the first playoff games, it was like, or was it? Yeah, no, that right. was the two weeks off. Yeah, it felt like it felt like.

Brandon Hooten (06:01.355)
Yeah, because there was was that one. Goodbye.

Neil Barrett (06:07.43)
Like we hit this lull and I was I was really worried especially with the two weeks You know cuz we had two weeks off then we played for two weeks and then we had two more weeks off and it was like oh No, like this is gonna be problem but like you said they did a really good job of maybe taking that that first kind of off a little bit but then really ramping up into the week with all the Activations and every day there was something the WLL announcement will get into in a little bit but

Yeah, I don't know. Something about it just felt really good. I thought, I guess the real question is,

What do you think is better? You think it's better to have that build into the beginning of the season or the build for the championship? We should, before I forget to say this, it was announced earlier today that this was the most watched PLL championship game they've ever had. So yeah, back to the question, which do you think is better, that ramp up at the beginning of the season or the ramp up at the end? Because the flip side of it is...

You just ramped up and everyone's all excited, but now the season's over. There's nothing for them to watch for eight months until we hit the championship series.

Brandon Hooten (07:21.067)
Yeah, I mean you should be ramping up into every game. you know, that's just, that's what you're supposed to be doing, especially as a small league. Like, you're fighting for viewers. I mean, literally. So you should be ramping up. But, I mean, the beginning of season is obviously the most important because as long as you have people aware that it's happening, they're more likely to then ride out the season with you into the championship. And I think, like, especially, like, you know, leagues like the NFL, they have their Pro Bowl that week in between the end of the playoffs and the championship game. So you're still kind of in that flow.

And I've said this before on here would love to see that type of thing happen with the PLL to where we don't have to then rant back up into the championship game. It should be a given. We're done. Hey, here's all-star boom straight into championship weekend. But as I said for having the time off that they did the schedule they did I thought it was pretty well done overall.

Neil Barrett (08:11.462)
Yeah, yeah. So now that that is out of the way, let's talk about the game and first things up from a 5,000 foot perspective, what did you think overall?

Brandon Hooten (08:26.701)
It great. It was almost exactly what I wanted I said coming into it like you what you just want the best of the best in your championships across sports and I feel like especially like in recent history not just not this league necessarily but Across sports like you see these championship games or series that are pretty lopsided and it almost feels like why are we even playing this like you're you know You won for one or you know, whatever Whereas this was like the two heavy hitters actually going back and forth

Neil Barrett (08:55.45)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (08:55.565)
And especially when you factor in like when they played in you know week eight or whatever that was that was a one-go game too and we said back then this feels like a championship matchup and sure enough the same thing happens just on the other you know other side of the coin so from that perspective into lacrosse perspective I even put on Twitter like it's such a good game for the sport because now when people are flipping through it's always this is the championship and it's a one-go game a two-go game a tied game

Neil Barrett (09:02.95)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (09:15.526)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (09:23.275)
And I just, thought the stars showed out as well, which is, is, you know, not, not saying that, you know, the role players seeing them shine, isn't a bad thing either, but like you want to see your, your Jeff Teets playing well, your, your Brennan O'Neil's, your Pat Caps, whoever, like that's what you want to see. And I think we got quite a bit of that. So from a lacrosse perspective, I thought it was awesome.

Neil Barrett (09:45.478)
Did, again, 5,000 foot question. I saw a lot of people talking after the game about whether or not this was the greatest PLL championship game. Again, I know you got a little bit of bias, but where does it rank for you?

Brandon Hooten (10:02.839)
Well, I have not watched every PLL Championship, so I can't speak, you know, super well to it.

Neil Barrett (10:08.976)
What was your first one?

Brandon Hooten (10:11.917)
I think the first one I watched like I was dedicated to watching it was the first Utah Championship But I've seen I've seen clips obviously like I've seen like when Rambo scored the game winner You know that type of thing but like as far as like maybe like I'm gonna watch this game I think that might have been the first one But but again because of the the level of lacrosse that was played

Neil Barrett (10:23.078)
Okay.

Neil Barrett (10:28.261)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (10:32.954)
Yeah. Okay.

Brandon Hooten (10:40.045)
I can definitely see people making that argument. mean, yeah, it was higher scoring than a lot of games, but at the same time, like it was close. Like there wasn't a single point in this game that I was like, the outlaws have it or all the Atlas have it. was like literally until the end. Then I was like, well, there it is. Like, and that's again, that's, that's kind of what you want. Like it's even, even as like the winning team, like you want to feel like you earned it and like,

Neil Barrett (10:49.584)
in

Brandon Hooten (11:04.757)
Hey, maybe we lose, if we play this game again, know, 10 times out of 10, maybe we lose whatever, however many of them, but we won today. Like that's what matters. And that's, that was really cool to me to see. So from that perspective, yeah, I mean, I could absolutely see that argument being made.

Neil Barrett (11:18.928)
It's funny though, cause you said, you said that first archers game, was the archers with water dogs game. And that's the one I was like, I think that one was better. Cause that was the same sort of thing as this one, heavyweight, you know, back and forth battle. No one ever felt like they were, they were safe and anything. And it came down to that Brett Dobson save right as the, right, right as the time was about to expire in order to preserve that win.

Brandon Hooten (11:42.07)
Incredible.

Brandon Hooten (11:46.571)
I would accept that answer as well. I think that's up there.

Neil Barrett (11:49.19)
So yeah, so I have it, I have it just a little bit above that, above this one. But otherwise I think, like you said, if someone has this one as the greatest, I'm not too upset about it. And then, but it's one of these two. And then I think that that Whipsnakes 2019, the very first one, that overtime game, I think that's probably third just because of the overtime and the excitement. But I think people forget.

A lot of that game was not great. You know, there was a late push at the end that kind of made us forget, I think, how a lot of that game was. So anyway, I just wondered what you thought. Let's maybe get into the game itself a little bit.

I wrote early battle, both teams just throwing haymakers. I think that continued pretty much the whole game, just going at it. I guess if I had to be slightly nitpicky, I the fourth quarter from the outlaws was a little rough. think that's really where they lost the game, I think. It was back and forth, back and forth. And then that fourth quarter, it reminded me of...

What was it might have been the previous outlaws or atlas game? Honestly, there was that game that they had where? Maybe it was the third quarter in the atlas game where they just came out and it was like it was like they had forgotten everything they had done and for just I Won't even say it was a full quarter. It was like ten minutes of a quarter. It was like what are we doing? I think I texted the group chat and I was like

And late in the fourth quarter, was like, has Brendan O'Neill even touched the ball in this quarter? Because they were just like coming down in transition, firing shots without backups and everything and losing possession. It was coming back upfield and turning the ball over and it was like, what is happening all of a sudden? But, you know.

Brandon Hooten (13:41.248)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (13:53.702)
That being said, it's a one goal game and Brennan O'Neill had that chance to tie it with what, 50 seconds left, something like that? that. And I thought he, it's weird to say for a guy who charged in on the net like that, but I thought he looked just a hair timid. I thought he looked like he was expecting a slide to come that just never came. And he was waiting to make a pass.

Brandon Hooten (14:14.913)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (14:20.056)
instead of being like, hey, I am going to take this to the rack and score. You know, we think about that NLL goal that he scored this year, that falling backwards one. And that was him just deciding to go to the goal. And that was not the way I thought he went to the goal in this particular case. That being said, he got to the goal and got smashed by two players. And I thought, you know.

It's one of those things, you know? you got arguably your best player with the ball in his hand. You hope he makes the shot he didn't and you have to kind of live with that a little bit.

Brandon Hooten (14:55.34)
Yep. And I mean, you got the look I think the team wanted. to your credit, I think, I don't think he thought he was even going to get the look. And sometimes when you're in those moments, it's just like, all of a sudden you're like, oh wait, like, you know, and then, and then on top of that, the slide, like you said, did come late. So you know, you're going to get smashed now at the end of the play regardless, like, and you know, he just airmailed it a little bit. It's, you know, it's unfortunate, but it's one those things that like, now next time he's probably going to attack the net harder and be like, no, I'm going to score.

Neil Barrett (14:59.289)
Right.

Neil Barrett (15:03.438)
Right.

Brandon Hooten (15:24.062)
If the pass is there, I'll pass it. But again, I mean, he's a second year player. know, that type of stuff, I know we regard him as like, you know, Superman, but like, this type of thing happens with young players.

Neil Barrett (15:34.852)
That yeah, that was that was one of the things that I said after the game was like nobody's legacy is made in their second year. Like that's not losing this game is not about.

Brennan O'Neill can't win the big one. Just like it wouldn't have been if the Atlas lost that game. wouldn't have been, they're the Dallas Cowboys. It's a seven year old league. Like, what are we talking about? It's a seven year old league where there's what? There was what one player who was around from the first season, Trevor Baptiste, and one guy who played on that team who's now an assistant coach with Steven Brooks. Like, are we really trying to tie all of these? They're on what? Coach?

three and a half because Steven Brooks was the head coach for that championship series. So like what are what are we three and three and a half coaches in seven seasons is like what are we talking about? These are not it's not the same teams at all and and hopefully something that you can take some pride in. If I had to pick which one of these teams I think I think they're both going to be very good for the next few years. But if I had to pick who was more likely to get back

I think I would lean Denver.

Brandon Hooten (16:50.707)
I mean as far as getting back, I would probably agree. I still think there's a couple things that we can get into later that did and will hold them back. But generally speaking, I don't think this is gonna be the last time they're in the championship game. Again, this is a team that, mean, 0-2 to start the year. You make a goalie change, you add in Jared Bernhardt. All of a sudden you got Pat Kaep touching the ball 50 times. The entire year they were just meshing.

Neil Barrett (17:05.06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (17:17.259)
Basically, you're one with this squad. You go back and look at the roster last year versus this year, you're like, this is two different realms. And here they are, as young as they are. So yeah, they'll be back. And I'm sure the Atlas will be back as well. Cuz, I mean, like we've been saying all year, they have the most complete team at every position, top to bottom.

Neil Barrett (17:19.963)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (17:23.654)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (17:35.158)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was,

Brandon Hooten (17:38.558)
and on your point about Brennan not being able to win or whatever, like, we're not gonna throw that around in a one goal game where he scored three goals. Like that's, and this goes into a bigger point about like it's a team sport first off, but if you're going and you're tweeting or putting wherever that a certain player can't win in a one goal loss where he did nearly everything correctly, like,

Respectfully, you're an idiot.

Neil Barrett (18:09.606)
Unrespectfully. I know who you're talking about and unrespectfully.

Brandon Hooten (18:15.147)
I mean, I just like, especially if your team's not in the championship to be talking like that is wild. But that's just me.

Neil Barrett (18:24.164)
You know, you know, yeah, no, it's crazy. And it was one thing. What was it that his freshman year at Duke when they lost in the championship or whatever it was? And and yeah, he was he had kind of pulled himself out of the game and he didn't contribute anything. But we're talking about a dude that since then has has done most of everything correctly and just been on the losing side. And it's so frustrating to me because it's like.

in a normal lacrosse game. He is one of probably 16 ish guys who have an impact on the game. And it and it's not like basketball where like one LeBron James can turn a team around because

Brandon Hooten (19:05.023)
Right.

Neil Barrett (19:11.878)
he's one of five guys who's on the court for, you know, 40 of 48 minutes. Like, you know, it's, he can have a, a significant impact on whether or not the team wins or loses. He can drop 40 points and drag a team to a, to a victory. And you know, you got to, you got to score eight goals in lacrosse to drag a team to a victory. It's just not the same thing. But

Brandon Hooten (19:38.86)
And I mean too, like acting like, like how is your attack supposed to carry your team when your face-off's going 9 for 30? You know, when Jared Bernhardt's on the doorstep and credits it to Entenmann for making the one-handed following save he did, but like that should be a goal 10 times out of 10. So are we gonna now not say that like, oh well, Hattie made that goal, they're winning, but then we're still gonna put it on Brendan? there's just enough of those plays in team sports.

Neil Barrett (19:47.941)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (20:06.527)
that's like, well if that happens, they win. Well, if that happens, if that doesn't happen, you know, it's just like, it's dumb to put it on a player. And again, it's a one goal loss. Like you did 99 % of the game, you know, you did what you're supposed to do.

Neil Barrett (20:22.406)
And again, if most of that fourth quarter, they actually are getting to play settled offense, who knows what happens? Like it could change totally, it could have been a completely different game if they were getting six on six possessions for a large majority of the beginning of that fourth quarter. So anyway, let's move off of Bernie O'Neill for a little bit. McNaney, Goalie of the Year.

bad, a bad time to have his, his worst game. It was his only sub 45 % game of the season. He was at 12 and a half percent in the middle of the second quarter. To be fair, he, he made a couple of late saves and finished at 25 at the half and then ultimately kind of finished the game. Like I said, just, just below 45. So I felt like he actually kind of picked up halfway decently. But

Brandon Hooten (21:17.387)
Mm-hmm. It was really just a bad first half the second half He was I mean much better and also I thought the defensive play was it was this kind of the same there was a lot of just like I Don't want to call it lazy defense in the first half, but just like it felt like The Atlas were just kind of getting to their spots kind of whatever And then something about that second half all of a sudden it was like hey We got to like actually step up and you start seeing more clean saves being made defense is actually playing their potential and again for the people

Neil Barrett (21:21.146)
Yes.

Brandon Hooten (21:47.435)
Talking about goalie of the year, A, this game doesn't affect that, B, Entomid had a 48.3 % game this year and a 39.3 % game this year, so we're not gonna go all about, oh, look at the save percentage, like, stop. Every goalie had bad games this year, it is what it is. But, right. But yes, it was a bad time for him to have that first half he did. Like, there was a couple times that was like, you make that save 10 times out of 10 in the regular season, like, get that, you know?

Neil Barrett (22:03.1)
It's the nature of this league and how good these teams are

Brandon Hooten (22:15.658)
But you just there was a point in the third quarter where you could see like hey, I'm supposed to be here like we're fine and then it just came down to just getting one more than the other team and And again like when when Trevor Baptiste is 22 for 30

Brandon Hooten (22:34.6)
I'm gonna keep saying it, like, if the other team is getting more shots, they're gonna win the game most likely. And unfortunately, I think even though he picked up the slack in second half, it was like just a bit too much.

Neil Barrett (22:46.0)
Yeah, yeah. Well, to your point, we're kind like we were talking about with Brennan. Logan Mcnaney had a 44 % game and they lost by one. Like.

Brandon Hooten (22:57.886)
And still made 11 saves too, it wasn't like he was, you know, with four saves or whatever, like we've seen this here.

Neil Barrett (23:01.264)
That's true. Yeah, I mean, they were they were getting they were getting peppered there a little bit. And he just like you said, bad a bad time to have a bad half. But. Obviously, we got to talk about the Atlas here a bit. They won the championship. We should probably probably discuss them a little bit. Jeff T looked like Jeff T.

Brandon Hooten (23:29.086)
Best in the world.

Neil Barrett (23:30.662)
the best player since 2010.

Brandon Hooten (23:34.396)
I was cracking up in our group chat when I sent that message because I wasn't sure who else in there listened to our episode, but I was like, Neil's going to laugh at this. So I had to say it.

Neil Barrett (23:45.35)
Mm-hmm. And I did. And I did. was, was... Look, if, if you're gonna come out like that, you know...

Brandon Hooten (23:48.65)
Brandon Hooten (23:54.332)
Six points in a championship? You can have that title.

Neil Barrett (23:58.854)
I think I saw he's one of three, I think, that has six or more points in a championship. And I think that number included the NLL. Maybe not, maybe that's way wrong. Maybe it was just field lacrosse. Yeah, don't know either.

Brandon Hooten (24:10.846)
I'm not totally sure.

Either way, one of us liked a few for sure.

Neil Barrett (24:17.368)
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, just just an all time performance. Connor Schellenberger was was great as well. But the one the one I think we got to talk about here is is Matt Traynor stepping in for Xander Dixon when he went down. First of all, crazy, insane injury. Hopefully, hopefully you guys missed seeing that because that was not pretty.

Brandon Hooten (24:45.79)
It was gross. It was gross.

Neil Barrett (24:47.846)
It was real gross. And Zander was on Twitter a few hours later and basically said he was good. hopefully he heals up and he's back on the field soon. But Matt Traynor bumped down, took his role and got to admit he did far better than I thought he was going to do. didn't do Zander's kind of off ball scoring style. He played like Matt Traynor plays, but

Part of me wondered was, and I mean, obviously the answer is probably a little bit of both, but do you think it was more Matt trainer being Matt trainer or was it more, you know, we, were prepared for Xander Dixon and now we have this like dodging threat with the ball in his stick kind of player and we just, we're just not prepared for that.

Brandon Hooten (25:44.639)
Well, that's what I was gonna say when you started speaking about this was it definitely looked like at times they just they the outlaws defense wasn't ready for that. I mean rightfully so But then when you when you factor that in with Matt trainers still incredible at the game of lacrosse You know like I'm not gonna say like it's not on him at all like no He still had to put the ball in the back of the net and I mean realistically He should have had a fourth at the end of the game. He just kind of you know fumbled the ball on the doorstep with the shovel, but Yeah, he was I mean

Neil Barrett (26:00.816)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (26:05.904)
Yep.

Brandon Hooten (26:14.652)
If they didn't have Xander Dixon and the other guys they have, I'd be saying, hey, let's maybe bump him down more often. Cause he was, he was very good. And I mean, he took 10 shots and you know, shot 30%. Like that's, that's serviceable.

Neil Barrett (26:28.752)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's one of those things of like, like we've debated all year about several teams, most notably probably with the outlaws about like, you know, what's best for a player may not necessarily be what's best for the team. And, you know, as good as Matt trainer was in this game and can be in that role. I don't think anyone thinks that when Xander Dixon's healthy, he's not getting his spot back.

So, and it, and it's one of the, it's one of the good things about this Atlas roster and the way that they've built it is that, that, yeah, they can, they can say, nah, Xander's down here and Matt, you're, dodging from the top and he can do it. And he can, he can play very well. you know, there were several games this year where we thought he was, he was probably going to run away with rookie of the year. And then he had a couple of days, he kind of had that, that,

Brandon Hooten (26:58.386)
Nah, he's right back in there.

Neil Barrett (27:25.786)
that jeff teeth season of like, can I can be really good, but also I don't have to be all the time. But yeah, you know, it's just it's just kind of the nature of how good they've built this roster that they have guys that they can move around. I was thinking about this too, because I saw Miles Jones was in so much of the lead up into this game. And I thought, how how crazy is it that this roster is this good where where they

Brandon Hooten (27:27.306)
Hehehehe

Yeah.

Neil Barrett (27:55.642)
They basically went wire to wire as like the favorite to win and won. While Miles Jones, who played very well in the first two or three games, whatever it was that he played, was sitting out. Like they constructed a roster that well that you could sit a guy like Miles Jones out and arguably were better. Maybe.

Brandon Hooten (28:23.261)
Yeah. I mean, at beginning of the year they had Cal Jackson signed on as well that I was like, you know, it's an interesting signing cause you already have a bunch of, you know, really great middies. but I think, you know, when you have Reed Bowring coming into his, his own in the PLL, you have, you know, Hugh Keller and you know, some others and I'm like, sorry, go sit on the bench for a while. Cause I mean, it clearly works, but just the fact that they have those options to where any week they could have said, Hey, Miles was like,

Neil Barrett (28:27.12)
It's true.

Brandon Hooten (28:53.063)
you know, and they would have been incredible still is it's insane. And honestly, if they did more of the additions this year, you could have made the Pressler head coach of the year argument even stronger. But you know, obviously all this stuff kind of happened previous years, but man, like just an insane roster he's put together.

Neil Barrett (29:05.126)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (29:13.476)
Yeah, no, I mean, it's crazy to think like if the Xander Dixon injury happens in the semifinal, they bump Matt Trainor down and bring in Miles Jones. And it's like, wait, we just keep on clicking. It's like, well, what? Yeah. Or like you said, maybe they bring in Kyle Jackson, you know, to fill that role. And again, they just kind of they just keep on rolling. We will we will get into this next week. But that's two names right there that.

Brandon Hooten (29:25.597)
Yep, like nothing happened.

Neil Barrett (29:43.694)
I think might be looking to find a new team. Because you gotta think both of those dudes can still contribute. Miles Jones I thought was pretty good in his first couple of games. I thought Kyle Jackson was a little quiet, but I don't think there was a whole lot of room for him.

Brandon Hooten (30:02.409)
Well when he signed over there too I was kind of like I don't know if that makes a ton of sense but then it was like well he just got traded to Albany in the NLL obviously they're not there now but at the time it was like I believe he lives there too so it's like just be all in one place all the time but now it's just kind of like you're gonna have to look elsewhere I think

Neil Barrett (30:05.39)
It felt a little strange. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (30:10.426)
Yes.

Neil Barrett (30:22.36)
Ironically, I'm like, you know, Carolina. I mean, that's the that's the thing for every offensive player you got. mean, Carolina. But anyway, any anything else on this game? It was it was a great game.

Brandon Hooten (30:27.325)
Yep. Yep.

Brandon Hooten (30:37.533)
No, I think I think everything else is just more about the future for the outlaws and some of the things cuz like I said it twice already, but I really think faceoff is just It lost on the game in my opinion like I know we talked a lot about faceoffs not necessarily mattering as much as they You know could or should per se But when you're losing games by one and You won eight of thirty I just

You win one more, is it tied? You win two more, do you win the game? It's just so many of those ifs that I'm like... Man, something's gotta change, obviously. And, I mean, Vintage Baptiste came out as well, which I know he didn't have a great season by his standards, but man, what a time to come alive. Especially when, I believe earlier in the year, you know, he struggled against Wehrman. So to see him come back and like be like, no, this is my stripe.

Neil Barrett (31:21.481)
yeah.

Neil Barrett (31:32.73)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (31:36.051)
We're winning basically every time make it take it like that was cool to see especially him being a Denver guy so him and Danny Logan as well shout out to both of those profiles

Neil Barrett (31:49.158)
We're going to talk some more about Pios and a little bit later when we get to the NLL draft. it's funny, I'm looking at the stats right here and the team stats and this game is so close, but kind of to the point that we've said several times about this being a one goal game, the Atlas actually won every single statistical cat. I take it back. The Outlaws had one more shot.

Brandon Hooten (32:18.846)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (32:19.238)
but their shot percentage was lower. otherwise, otherwise the Atlas won every single set, not by much, not by a ton, but they did win. you know, honestly, when you look at some of the stats, it's like, wait, this was only a one goal game? Like in a weird way, I feel a little better about the outlaws knowing that they played this kind of game and still had a

a one goal game and like we've said, had the chance to tie it up right at the end. I was kind of hoping we were gonna get some overtime. That would have been crazy, but.

Brandon Hooten (32:53.886)
Yep.

Brandon Hooten (33:00.487)
Yeah, and I think it was cool too that like there was no two-pointers. So it was truly 14 scores to 13 scores. Sometimes you see those twos and it skews it and it's like, it was a close game and it's like, well, not really, cause they hit three twos or you know, whatever. So as much as I do love seeing a two bomb, I appreciated that it was just like kind of the grit and grind, like go get a one pointer over and over.

Neil Barrett (33:05.382)
A 1413. Yep.

Neil Barrett (33:11.92)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (33:21.828)
Yeah, yeah, no, it was it was definitely a fun game. Let's let's move on somewhat briefly, I guess. Well, there's not a whole lot for us to talk about to the the PLL Awards. think I think you and I when we went over the PLL Awards at the was at the end of the season, I think we did that. I think we nailed.

You know what? I don't think we had coach of the year. I think that's the only one we didn't have. And I think we both said that we thought Dylan Malloy was going to win comeback player of the year. But I know I made the argument that I didn't think he should. And that was really interesting. I was reading, I don't know if you saw Dan Arrestia put out his whole ballot, everything that he had voted for, all the All Pros, all of that.

Brandon Hooten (34:05.416)
Yep, yep, we heard that this morning.

Neil Barrett (34:12.422)
and why, and he had the same sort of reasoning that I do of, you know, it's hard to do come back player of the year for someone who was healthy and was there. He just wasn't being used. know, like next year, are we going to put Miles Jones in it if he, you know, has a starring role on a team? Like, I don't know, that just feels weird. I did like Dan's idea of a most improved player, because in that sense, I

I think Dylan Malloy has a good argument. But yeah, come back seems a little hard when when he was just not good enough to play and the other two guys were on like year long plus long injuries, especially in Dan's article. He pointed out that when Brad Smith came back, the thought was that he was going to be the third, the number three midfielder behind

Brandon Hooten (34:57.618)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (35:09.134)
Tucker Dorovic and who's the other one they had go down? Conrad, right? Brian Conrad, I think. And so he was going to be the number three. And then like at the start of the season, Dorovic retires and Conrad goes down and suddenly he's the number one guy. And coming off of a year and a half out with a knee injury like...

Brandon Hooten (35:16.134)
Yeah. Yeah, he was out all year.

Neil Barrett (35:35.504)
Yeah, I don't know, that's kind of crazy. But yeah, everything else we got or, you know, like I think neither one of us would have said it was Matt Campbell, but we knew it was going to be, you know, we might've had an argument for someone else, but we knew Matt Campbell was gonna win, you know, stuff like that.

Brandon Hooten (35:53.225)
I definitely picked Matt Campbell. I know that and I do believe I said I I felt that Anthony Kelly should have won of the finalist but I felt Sudan was going to win I'm almost certain we can go find the clip but I believe I mentioned that I think he's gonna win it because of the GM role that he did the GM work excuse me and and I and I still to this day think that's why he won because

Neil Barrett (36:05.392)
Did you?

Neil Barrett (36:18.096)
Well, Andy, Andy had that last to first kind of thing.

Brandon Hooten (36:21.636)
Sure, sure, but I would also argue that that's more on the couple of players that were entered into the lineup, which I guess you can contribute to coaching. But yeah, but outside of that, like I thought we kind of had a good gauge on like who we thought should win versus did win.

Neil Barrett (36:38.736)
This felt like kind of the most easily predicted year that I can really remember. there didn't feel like there was a whole lot of debate. know, again, we're talking about Dan's article. I know he had Jack Rowlett, I think, as defensive player of the year. he had, yeah, cause he had Troy Ray as the LSM, which seemed so strange to me. I don't remember hearing

Brandon Hooten (36:58.0)
He was heavy on chaos. He had Troy Ray as well.

Neil Barrett (37:08.256)
anyone say it was Troy Ray until Troy Ray was on the finalists and then even after that he's the only one I've heard say Troy Ray should win it.

Brandon Hooten (37:22.342)
Yeah, but I mean he gave he gave good reasons to though so like I can't I I can't you know fault him for that I actually really do appreciate him putting out that article and just being like hey this is Not only who I voted for but like why you know I think a lot of times in sports were so scared of like Criticism to be like well, why why'd you pick that and it's like well here it is and especially for someone of his you know status in the lacrosse world I was like, this is awesome because you can't argue it like

Neil Barrett (37:25.456)
For sure, for sure.

Neil Barrett (37:49.552)
Yeah, I mean, well, you can, but like...

Brandon Hooten (37:51.174)
Well, you can argue against what he's, you know, but you know what saying, like he gave you the reason and you can either agree or disagree, which is-

Neil Barrett (37:58.33)
Well, you know, we talk about that all the time. Like if there's a sound logical argument, I can disagree with you, but I can't, I can't be mad at you, you know? And like you said, he had, good arguments for everything. Even Troy Ray, like I get what he's saying. I get why he liked it. I disagree probably on, on, you know, some of the criteria that he's the way that he's waiting criteria, maybe is the, is the better way to phrase it.

Especially, I don't know, it kind of cracked me up about Troy Ray about like, so many of the categories, he'd be like, yeah, he was second in this category to Jake Pacino. And it would be like, yeah. But

Brandon Hooten (38:43.686)
Hey, it's tough to beat a season like Pacino had. on both ends. Like we've talked about, it helps when you're contributing on the offensive end, because that's when your name's getting talked about. And all of a sudden now people are watching you on the defensive end as well. And it's like, well, man.

Neil Barrett (38:47.044)
Yeah, yeah.

Neil Barrett (38:52.944)
Yes.

Neil Barrett (38:57.946)
Yeah. And, and one of Dan's points throughout that whole article was like, you can't just go to the stats page and click, you know, points or ground balls or whatever it is, cause turnovers and go, well that guy's the top. he's the winner. Like that's not how this should work. And he's right about that. as far as LSM, LSM and short stick defensive midfielder of the year, I want someone who does all love it.

You know, like that's why, that's why I liked Ryan Tarofenko so much this year, because he's very, very good on the defensive end, but then he also fulfills the other responsibility of pushing and transition and creating offense. those two positions, I don't feel like it's good enough to be one or the other. You have to do both. It's what that position, those positions require in the game, in the modern game, you know, so.

Yeah, I don't know. We pretty much nailed it. Again, I don't think they were crazy hard, but yeah, hey, hey, we pretty much nailed it, you know. Let's move on to the big announcement before the PLL Championship. That is the WLL announcing that they will play a full 11 week schedule next summer. It will be

Brandon Hooten (40:04.709)
No biggie, we just, you know, predicted them.

Neil Barrett (40:25.382)
10 v what we saw at the All-Star game, it will be the original four teams that we saw at the championship series this past year. There will be an entry draft similar to what happened when the MLL and PLL merged and they had to bring all those MLL players into the league. There will be something like that for the fairly substantial amount of number of players, but also some of the names that are not.

currently on WLL rosters is crazy. And then they will also have a collegiate draft as well next spring. I'm a little curious. They highlighted the fact that it would be the four teams. And so I don't really think that expansion is going to happen. I don't think it's on the horizon or anything. I'm not suggesting that it will happen. But an 11 week schedule was really

interesting to me because I'm assuming that means championship and semi-finals as well as an All-Star game. So that's that's three weeks right there that leaves you an eight week regular season with four teams. It means that you're gonna play three teams twice and two teams three times. Which is a lot. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (41:46.32)
No.

Brandon Hooten (41:50.545)
three teams twice. That's already six games. But you're only playing three teams.

Neil Barrett (41:57.894)
Sorry, how do I phrase this? Sorry, hold on. You're gonna play two teams three times and one team twice. Sorry, you're right. I screwed that up.

Brandon Hooten (42:07.515)
Three times, yes.

Yes, there we go. Sorry. I was like, was like, hang on. I don't think my math is mathin' right here. All right.

Neil Barrett (42:16.006)
No, it was not. It was not. That that one's on me. I which I don't know, just seemed like a lot of a lot of games of playing the same teams over and over and over again. And it's hard because I know know obviously adding a team adds money and you'd have to probably slip into bi weeks and then you got to like link that out the schedule another week or two.

But at least in that scenario, again, with bi-weeks and adding a week or two, you could have everybody play everybody twice, essentially, in the eight weeks. Well, it'd probably be one of like it was a couple of years ago when we, I think it was when we had seven PLL teams, I think, where there was like, it was like, you played a 10 game season, but it was across like 11 or 12.

playing weekends. So it would be something like that where you'd still have like an eight game schedule, but it would be across 10 weekends plus the additional three or whatever. So again, I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think they're gonna add a team or anything, but it it felt like a really weird number. And I was like, I don't know how we decided on this. I'm sure that they had someone do some algorithm that, you know, determined the...

the perfect kind of amount of games and everything. anyway, just something I thought. what do you think? And obviously, I'm sure you're stoked and excited to see this. what were your kind of big takeaways from this?

Brandon Hooten (43:59.943)
think you nailed it. think it's just gonna be interesting with only four teams, because now you have four teams in champ series and regular season, so it's kind of like... I know it's two different disciplines technically, but it's just kind of weird. But I think it's step in the right direction. I definitely think... I don't think they expected to have to launch this as soon as it did, obviously with Athletes Unlimited kind of ending the way it did, but it's cool, and I do kind of think that expansion is gonna have to come rather quickly.

in the next year if I had to guess maybe two just because right now having the four teams like you said it's a weird number of games and Assuming they're gonna be following the PLL schedule and travel schedule like you kind of need there to be that certain amount of games you're playing so It'll be interesting, but you know, it's more lacrosse. It's great for women's sports and I'm hoping we get Denver team soon because I'm not picking any of these teams. I'm just I'm just not

Neil Barrett (45:00.922)
I thought a similar thing that like the second they add a North Carolina team, that's going to be like the first PLL team that is like my team, or PLL, WLL team that is going to be my team. I do think it's really interesting that in the PLL, we look at the championship series, but there are so many guys that are playing

NLL that you can really use it as a way to see new players get some guys who are maybe on the fringes of making the team and really see them in kind of game action. But the WLL won't have that. So you're going to take this roster and just basically like condense it into like your best 12 players. And it's just going to be like

high octane all the time because again, I think what they had already was high octane but there's so many there are so many big names that are not affiliated with any team right now. You know, we talked about Kenzie Kent and Sam Apuso and a lot of these these big big names in women's lacrosse that did not play in the WLL at the championship series. A few of them played at the All-Star Game.

You know, I don't think that there's gonna be any kind of drop off and I don't know how when you have a 25 or whatever their full roster ends up being, how you're gonna shrink that basically in half for these games. Like that's gonna be, that's gonna be insane.

Brandon Hooten (46:49.606)
Well, and also the fact that they're doing 10 v 10 is awesome. I Notoriously, I'm not a huge sixes guy. But when I watched the 10 v 10 all-star game, I was like, this is pretty nice. Like it's much closer to the men's game. Like it was just, it was just better overall. My only question though is how are they gonna do all-star teams because like over half the league's now gonna be an all-star just by, I mean numbers.

Neil Barrett (46:55.204)
Yes.

Thank you.

Brandon Hooten (47:18.852)
So you're going have to then expand pretty soon so you don't have like people just walking into all star selections essentially.

Neil Barrett (47:28.57)
Wow. I mean, you say that, but the PLL had people walking into all star game selections.

Brandon Hooten (47:33.383)
I'm not saying they don't But you know what I'm saying But I'm curious but that's also this also a good thing. I'm not saying this is a negative like this It's a good thing that we're gonna have it. I just hope that We can get more of these players involved Sooner than later so that way we can have and I would assume that's what their plan is to have you know the other four PLL teams get their own women's team as well, which will be cool, but

Neil Barrett (47:42.032)
Just sipping my tea over here.

Brandon Hooten (48:03.206)
Yeah, it's exciting.

Neil Barrett (48:05.22)
Yeah, I'm really stoked to see it. I had so much fun watching them at the championship series and then again at the All-Star game and the All-Star game last year and everything that they've done with Unleashed. And like you said, there was an element, I don't even want to say it was just because it was like similar to the men's game, although I think that definitely helps me understand it. There's times when I watch college women's lacrosse and I have no idea what's happening.

short of putting the ball in the back of the net. have no idea what's happening. But there was something I think, I think not so much about it necessarily being closer to the men's game, but just about it being dumbed down basically. Like, I'm dumber. I need, I need you to dumb this down for me. And, and it was a lot easier to follow and understand and, and just

Brandon Hooten (48:53.083)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (49:00.418)
enjoy it like just sit back and watch these women do what they do and I'm trying I'm stalling a little bit because I'm trying to find the tweet that listed out there was like someone listed out like eight names of women who are not currently on rosters but I can't find it now so anyway

Well, I'll move on from trying to find that, but yeah, I'm excited. In a lot of ways, I feel more excited for this than I do about the PLL often.

which is saying something, because, I mean, you've seen half my wardrobe is PLL gear.

Brandon Hooten (49:43.258)
Wow.

Brandon Hooten (49:49.424)
Wow, I mean the league needs to start putting out some more WLL merch than for you, because you're going to clean out their warehouse, just all the league apparel you buy.

Neil Barrett (49:58.032)
You know, you know, it's funny because, you know, I think we had it on the show. We had that conversation a while ago about putting the two together. Like, why can't why can't we have one store? And to be fair, I think they could still do that. But it dawned on me when we had the question in the group chat about. Excuse me.

Brandon Hooten (50:11.332)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (50:27.962)
While people, while people were excited about the WLL announcement, they wondered why the PLL would do this when their current stated goal is to raise the salaries and make it more of a full time thing. And that if they had the money for the WLL to do this, to jump into a full league, why couldn't they have

at least move more towards that stated goal. And I was like, well, you know, it's two different pots, know, that Maybelline is not a PLL sponsor, they're a WLL sponsor. Like they didn't, they didn't give money to the PLL, they gave money to the WLL. Sorry, I just smacked my mic. And it made me think the same thing that, that again, while it can probably be done for them to combine those two, I bet it is just a lot easier to just have two completely

Separate pots and it made me go dang it. I need to go over there and buy some I feel like I've been holding out on buying merch cuz I'm like put them together and now I'm like now I need to go I need to go buy some

Brandon Hooten (51:38.308)
Speaking of merch though, I hope the PLL is listening. This is a huge opportunity. Well, WLL as well, same thing. Trading cards. You already have photos from an All-Star game. You can put out a select set. Now we need trading cards for the WLL. Yes. I think that would do, not only would it do well for card collectors already. I think you'd get women involved in card collecting, which helps your PLL stuff as well. You have an extra thing to sell.

Neil Barrett (51:52.582)
of WLF? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brandon Hooten (52:06.423)
at games, it's like exciting, like, what am going to get? And I think also it'd be really awesome for these athletes to then see themselves on a card and, I can sign the card. I know some people are against that, but I'm just saying for the kids to be like, well, I just pulled a Charlotte North. Let me go get her to sign it. I think that'd be awesome. And I'm sure they're already thinking about that, but I'm just putting that out there that like that'd be awesome.

Neil Barrett (52:14.106)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (52:25.926)
How do you feel about in-person signatures on a card?

Brandon Hooten (52:31.567)
I go back and forth. It kind of depends on situation. Like if I'm buying a card, I don't love it just because like how am I supposed to know that's really them type of thing. But like if it's like I have a lot of cards that I'm never selling because it's like just for my personal collection that like if I see the athlete I'm like, hey, would you mind signing this? Because now it's a memory that like, hey, I remember I watched them play, you know, they scored six goals and now they're signing my card or whatever it is. So, you know, I don't think it looks as nice obviously, but

Neil Barrett (52:41.53)
Yeah, that's fair.

Neil Barrett (52:50.704)
Yep. Yep.

Brandon Hooten (53:00.323)
It's a fun memory and I think especially for kids, that might be their one time that year they get to talk to a professional athlete. And now they have their signature, they have that interaction. Now they're coming back for more the next year and it just leads down to positive interactions, I think, between players and fans.

Neil Barrett (53:06.757)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (53:16.826)
Yeah, no, that's a really good point though, because you're right. I'm the same way. I would never, I would never buy someone else's autographed card like that, like in person autographed. But my cards, the cards that I have that I don't, I don't really buy cards to sell them and, know, like I don't, that doesn't mean anything to me. I buy them because I like them and I want them. And I...

I don't know that I would have somebody sign a relic card. I don't know, you know, something that could maybe potentially be worth someone. But all those base extras that I have just laying around, I'm like, yeah, please come sign these. Like you said, for me, it's more about that memory of like, hey, remember that time Asher Knowlting signed that card and I talked about, you know, working the high point games while he was playing and stuff like, you know, it's way more about that memory for me. And so that's a very good point.

Brandon Hooten (53:55.012)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (54:00.996)
Yep.

Brandon Hooten (54:11.875)
It's also something that they can sign to that like you don't have to retire like like you get a jersey signed Some people do it. I'm not wearing it, you know, I I bought a bucket hat this summer because it was hot and then like two weeks later Pat cab signs it would shout pat You know, I appreciate it. But like I can't wear that hat now like you know, hey, hey drop it. All right There's no pat cav hate on this podcast

Neil Barrett (54:19.439)
I don't, no.

Neil Barrett (54:36.678)
I did it just for your benefit, just for your benefit. Listen, I don't care if the 25 people listening like these jokes, as long as I'm making you laugh, that's all I care about.

Brandon Hooten (54:45.989)
I'm gonna get you a pat cav shirt for Christmas

Neil Barrett (54:55.258)
I mean, if you want me to donate it to Guatemala, like, I guess.

Brandon Hooten (54:59.272)
that's messed up. Wow. Wow.

Neil Barrett (55:04.962)
It's so funny because I don't even hate Pat Kavanaugh, but like I do like I don't know. It's a weird thing. It is a weird thing. Speaking of Pat Kavanaugh, it's not Pat Kavanaugh. It's his brother Chris. This is not a good transition. I am not I am not Scotty Royster. Let's move off of the grass and move on to the floor and talk a little bit about the NLL draft.

The big, the big mover here, obviously as, as anyone who has the first three picks in a draft would be is the Toronto Rock. They drafted the, what everyone kind of expected their draft to be CJ cursed, Thai English and Owen Hilts. they will join Sam English. I, ironically, I thought this was funny.

Ty English, they drafted this year, but he's going to go back to UNC so he will not play this spring. But his brother Sam English, who was drafted last year and went back to Syracuse, will be playing. He will be a rookie this NLL season. So that was kind of funny to me that they drafted cursed English and Hilts and are going to take the floor with that this year, but it won't be Ty, it'll be Sam. don't know. Goofy for sure, but just something that made me laugh.

Also for field fans to note, they drafted Hugh Kelliher in the second round. Interesting to me.

No, you know what? I take that back. So, yeah, that is that was the Toronto draft kind of the high notes, the cliff notes of it. They got several other people, in fact, totally blanking on his name. But the guy they drafted in third round, I had heard a bunch about about how he could maybe even be like a first rounder. Some people were saying, I don't I don't know about that, but. I think so, right? Yes, yes, I don't.

Brandon Hooten (57:03.556)
who Toronto's picking the third round Isaiah Moore in weeks

Neil Barrett (57:11.448)
I don't know. I don't know anything about it. And I may have misread it because there was also. Yes, that's that's what I was surprised when I saw that this morning when I was writing the show, it's like, wait, from high point and to be completely honest, I may have I may be confusing him with who's the there's another three named dude.

Brandon Hooten (57:15.086)
Come on, that's a high point kid.

Neil Barrett (57:40.454)
Who went later I'm trying to find them real quick

Brandon Hooten (57:48.354)
I'm not seeing one with a 3 name for them anymore, just that guy.

Brandon Hooten (57:56.345)
But, I don't doubt you. I there's a lot of guys that go in this draft that you could probably argue should have been a first rounder.

Neil Barrett (58:06.234)
I'm like, and now I'm looking at the first, I'm like, wait, was that way off? Was he a first rounder? And I said he would know. There was another dude, I swear. Anyway, I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about half the time.

Neil Barrett (58:26.298)
No, I don't know. anyway, that was like I said, that was the high notes from the Toronto draft. I'll let you go. What do you got on this? I got a couple more notes, but I'll let you go so I shut up.

Brandon Hooten (58:42.946)
Yeah, first round was really good. I mean, it always is. Casey Wilson from Denver, taken forth by the Desert Dogs. Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of them go play boxing Canada in the summer. So that's why. And they're good. mean, Noah Manning went ninth to Calgary. I was hoping he'd fall one more spot to Colorado. But.

Neil Barrett (58:54.486)
Lot of Denver guys.

Neil Barrett (59:07.494)
So when we get that Denver National Championship,

Brandon Hooten (59:11.788)
Hey, we're not talking about that, alright? We're... Hey, hey, hey, hey. Our national championship was beating Duke in the regular season.

Neil Barrett (59:16.23)
No, I'm just saying I'm just saying if you have a lot of if you have a lot of guys that go high in a draft you're supposed to win national championships, right?

Brandon Hooten (59:28.962)
Alright. But, Anyway. Anyway. The Mammoth drafted very well, I was very pleased. Braden Sarish from Peterborough was awesome. It's funny, right before Connor Nock got drafted 10th overall to Colorado, I tweeted out, Connor Nock needs to be the pick right here. And like, not that it was surprise that they were looking at him, but still, I was like, please, and then sure enough they take him. So that was awesome. But then there was a lot of like other...

Neil Barrett (59:31.887)
I mean...

Probably true.

Brandon Hooten (59:58.021)
Cool things like Chris Cav going to San Diego with his brothers. Just awesome. We'll see if Pat plays a bigger role this year. I would assume he does because he signed a two year deal last year. And then I, I, again, I have no idea what Chris Cav's box skills are like, so we'll see if, if he plays. They definitely seem like they're going in, in the youth direction. Just they have a lot of quite frankly, older guys that are going to retire here soon. So hopefully he can kind of get up to speed and take over.

Neil Barrett (01:00:28.838)
They also are going in a field lacrosse direction because not only do they have Pat and Chris, but they also drafted Colter Macacy and Ben Ramsey and Eddie Q, none of which have box experience to speak of. You know, didn't play junior or anything like that. Maybe maybe played some local, you know, rec leagues where they grew up or something, but but no no real box experience to speak of.

And I was trying to think they they have done that a decent amount, right? Like that's

Brandon Hooten (01:01:04.12)
Yep. Well teams do that all the time. Just because of the player pool, like, you know.

Neil Barrett (01:01:10.778)
Well, but they do it. I feel like a lot of teams do it late. You know, by the time you get to round, certainly past round three, because there are six rounds in the NLL draft. And certainly by the time you get past round three, but sometimes even in round three, people are like, hey, you know, that that dude, you know, could could maybe turn into a pretty good player. We get him some box experience. But the Seals are the one team that I feel like

They do it early. Like, like they will go in the, in the first round and get Chris Kavanaugh. And then in the second round, follow it up with Colter Macacy. And you know, it's really funny, a little bit of inside our group chat, baseball here in inside baseball here. I actually messaged the group about specifically about Colter Macacy on the day of the draft.

Brandon Hooten (01:01:50.905)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:02:09.262)
And my thought process at the time was, I feel like Colter Mackesy and Owen Hiltz are very similar players. And Owen Hiltz was like a top three draft pick and he was, he was projected top three, like he was going to be a top three draft pick and nobody was talking about Colter Mackesy. And I just thought, that seems weird. And then it dawned on me after I sent the message, I was like,

people usually only project out round one, maybe a round two. I found a few that had two rounds and I was like, yeah, you probably wouldn't draft this kid who's never played box in one of those first, and then of course they drafted.

Brandon Hooten (01:02:51.393)
Yeah, unless your name is Brendan O'Neill.

Neil Barrett (01:02:55.673)
I mean...

Brandon Hooten (01:02:57.217)
Also, Mr. Q that was drafted, that pick got rescinded. he won't be playing. Somehow this continues to happen. yeah, so, just putting that out there. But, as far as the field, fans go, don't know, Jimmy Frihill goes 32 to Buffalo. The GOAT, dude, he's the best in the world.

Neil Barrett (01:03:02.338)
that's right, that's right, I forgot about that.

Neil Barrett (01:03:17.742)
I was waiting for you to say Jimmy Freehill. We got to talk about Jimmy Freehill on every episode. got to talk about Jimmy. I got to talk about Jimmy Freehill on every NLL episode now, don't I?

Brandon Hooten (01:03:23.871)
I'll gladly, gladly...

Brandon Hooten (01:03:32.685)
why I like to see right there. The only downside is it's to Buffalo. Other than that, I'm rooting for that kid every single time he on the floor.

Neil Barrett (01:03:38.502)
We are going to have like a Jimmy Freehill watch all in LLC soon. Yeah, yeah. Like the old Woody Page board behind you with just with his stats.

Brandon Hooten (01:03:43.876)
Yes, yes, we're just gonna have we're gonna have a chart that's just his stats and what is he doing? Yeah, but um Uh-huh Yes But yeah, mick kelly goes 19 to vancouver obviously he went to toronto at 20 um Trying to think obviously culture went andrew mcdory 46 to saskatchewan. So the duke to saskatchewan uh kind of connection continues to flow. I don't really know what it is, but

Neil Barrett (01:04:05.03)
There he is. I was waiting for you to say that. Dude, what is what is happening? They're like trying to make me a Rush fan. I don't want to do it.

Brandon Hooten (01:04:18.531)
You are a Rush fan now. You are. Sorry. You don't get a choice. Yeah, but yeah, Coach Maxey, 51 to San Diego. Ben Ramsey, 54 to San Diego. But I mean, there's a lot of like gems, I think here in like the later rounds from the box community that people probably don't fully know of. Bobby Van Buren, 67 to Georgia. You know, we'll see, kinda, we'll see what comes of that, but.

Neil Barrett (01:04:21.926)
We're going to talk about my fandom in just a second.

Neil Barrett (01:04:40.784)
Yeah, I saw that.

Brandon Hooten (01:04:46.613)
Otherwise, I think it's a good pick at face value, especially in the fifth round when a lot of these guys probably won't ever see the floor.

Neil Barrett (01:04:53.69)
Yeah, that was my big thing is like, is a Bobby Van Buren gonna play in the NLL? If he does, I think he could adapt and could be very good. But obviously you take him in the fifth round because you don't know if he has any desire to play, especially. Well, Georgia, he's from North Carolina, so, you know, Georgia could be a good spot. We'll see where he ends up in the PLL. I don't know much about what.

Brandon Hooten (01:05:11.042)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:05:23.206)
I wonder what he's...

That's what I'm looking for. What his degree is like what he's studying Anyway, yeah keep going

Brandon Hooten (01:05:34.97)
Yeah. No, I think, I think that's, that's all the, um, the field guys. There's obviously a lot of like collegiate field guys in the later rounds that people will know, but other than that, it's kind of just some fillers. Um, but it's kind of cool seeing some of the directions these teams are going. Obviously Toronto's following Brayson youth the next couple of years. Um, which I mean, it makes sense, but San Diego, same thing. Uh, Colorado took a crap ton of forwards and defensemen.

Which obviously I recognize just like four positions to choose from so it's you know not saying much But it felt like it was like they took three forwards in a row or something like that at one point like You kind of see Vegas taking a goaltender early on because their their goaltending play has been shaky So and then Vancouver I think got Got some good youth in there. That's just gonna make them even better now that they have a full season to really hone in with with doubts in the back so

Yeah, it should be good season assuming it happens. Again, that's assuming it happens. see. It is what it is.

Neil Barrett (01:06:41.008)
That was a Scotty Royster level transition because next up we have the NLL CBA and what is happening there? We don't know. I mean, we do. We know a little bit. There were there have been no updates from the league in several weeks. Correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I know, the deadline, the last announced deadline

Brandon Hooten (01:06:55.936)
Nothing, nothing's happening.

Neil Barrett (01:07:10.854)
came and went, right? And there was no extension, no nothing. It's just passed. Am I wrong on that?

Brandon Hooten (01:07:17.091)
deadline of what?

Neil Barrett (01:07:19.654)
of the CBA. There was one and then they pushed it and then think they pushed it again but the last date I remember was before the draft wasn't it?

Brandon Hooten (01:07:29.015)
Well, they were just pushing free agency. So the CBA, I believe, officially ends like in October, like right before the training camp starts and that type of thing. So they weren't actually pushing anything back necessarily. It was just free agency. They were trying to get it done before then, but then it didn't happen. So free agency unofficially started to where teams can make deals, but they can't be signed. Which I mean, it makes sense because

Neil Barrett (01:07:56.24)
Gotcha.

Brandon Hooten (01:07:57.623)
you know, the terms might be slightly different than new CBA. But that's why like it's getting down to crunch time because October's here in, you know, 15 days or whatever. And training camp starts the last week of October, first week of November. So.

Kind of getting down to it, but from what I understand now that came out this week, players want a 2-3 % increase. Somehow the offer apparently is lower than that, than the current CBA from the owners. And again, allegedly, the 2-3 % upcharge, we'll call it, lines up with the revenue they brought in last year. So why the owners would look at that and go, hey, we can't pay this? That doesn't make lot of sense to me. I'm kind of tired of people saying it's just like negotiations, because it's like,

Neil Barrett (01:08:34.597)
and

Neil Barrett (01:08:42.084)
What's also

Brandon Hooten (01:08:44.652)
That's not how you can negotiate going backwards.

Neil Barrett (01:08:47.118)
Yeah, what's also interesting to me is that it it doesn't sound like it's a negotiated percentage. It sounds like it's a it's a negotiated set amount because that's why they have to now.

add two to 3 % that is in line with the revenue from last year, as opposed to like typically my understanding of larger leagues, CBAs is that the players bargain a percentage of the revenue that comes in. And that way it really is about, hey, the league made X amount of money. So we're getting X amount of money. And so that's interesting to me, number one, just cause I've I've never

seen that have to happen. And then like you said, the the the announcement that that the current the offer on the table right now is less than what the previous CBA was when we all know that the revenue increase is baffling, baffling. it and I'm not I'm not saying the PLL does everything right. Lord knows.

You and I have talked about how they do plenty of things incorrectly, but by all accounts, they seem to make playing their payer, paying their players a priority, like making it a number one thing. It doesn't feel like this now, admittedly, they don't have a players union and that we could argue that is a detriment to the players as well. And that's fine. But I don't know. just it seems crazy to me.

that that they would offer something lower. And we talked about this a little bit off air that it makes me feel like there is some truth to how bad things are in the NLL because otherwise I just don't know how you can come to the table with a lower number. It doesn't make sense to me if what we're hearing is true and the league's revenue increased

Neil Barrett (01:11:01.638)
you know, 3 % and the and the players come to the table and say, we want an increase or what it what I would have to assume it means is that revenue went up 6 % and the players are saying we want three we want half of that because you know, we are we're the half of it give or take some I just don't understand unless that that number is that we have been hearing is not true.

and things really are worse than we think they are, I just don't know how you come to the table with a lower offer. That doesn't make any sense.

Brandon Hooten (01:11:38.242)
No, I don't I've said this for a while now. I don't think that it's actually bad. I think it's just them trying to get As good of a deal as they can as business people and I think a big part of what they're spending right now is When they went to unified standings and mind you this was talked about Behind the scenes two years ago when they announced this that you're all of a sudden spending a lot of money Flying teams across country flying guys across country multiple times a year

you you're spending more money now in the traveling process as well, like, if anything, it's worse now, that's what it is. Until I see something that tells me I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if I can see some figures, but in my head, like, we were doing fine, and all of a sudden now it's like, well, they don't know what goes into this league, and I'm like, okay, well, so what changed from three years ago? You didn't say anything three years ago, or two years ago, now all of a sudden it's an issue.

Neil Barrett (01:12:17.008)
Yeah, that's fair.

Brandon Hooten (01:12:34.793)
And it's not like, I don't know how this, their CBA set up, like, if, if, like, if they're bringing in more revenue, then yeah, they, they should get more. And I'm looking around the league and I'm like, okay, so you have your, your set up teams that are, that are bona fide pack in the house every night. Nothing, nothing's changed. In fact, all of those teams have increased. At least I can speak for Colorado specifically. They've increased the products in the store. So you're making more money in the store. You're still making money on the concessions. Like.

And then you see teams like Vancouver who increased attendance of viewership this year. San Diego continues. Like all these other teams that are increasing. So I'm like, what is, where are you spending the money then? If all of a sudden it's too much, like, like we're talking about some owners here who have zero reason to keep these teams in these small locations alive. Yet they do it year after year after year. And all of a sudden now it's this thing that's like, well, it costs a lot of money. And I'm like, really? Cause you all could have folded like,

I mean, Georgia could have folded years ago.

Rochester could fold it years ago, which is why I think there's one person behind what's happening. We all know who I'm talking about I'll leave it at that. It's ridiculous. Let's get it done. It doesn't need to be this drawn-out thing like I'll gladly buy more merchandise if that's what it takes boys like you know

Neil Barrett (01:13:54.95)
Brandon's gonna become a new NLL owner with the money he's gonna drop in the the merch.

Brandon Hooten (01:14:03.209)
I mean, I'm never buying a house, but I can buy more NLL gear.

Neil Barrett (01:14:09.242)
Listen, ain't nobody buying a house anymore. If you don't have a house right now, you ain't never getting one.

Brandon Hooten (01:14:11.316)
I know.

Nope, but I can get a seat for an NLL game. So Come on boys. Like let's come to the table the fact that we're getting reports that there's like a stalemate and they're not talking every day you guys should be talking every single day like You know, we already saved one team this offseason. There's rumors that if the CB hasn't get done two more disappear You know, and also we're pairing this with some of the comments from the commissioner about how Canada is a target audience

Neil Barrett (01:14:15.96)
Okay.

Brandon Hooten (01:14:43.945)
Man, I know apparently we don't have money for PR apparently, but I mean Need to hire someone because we can't be saying that

Neil Barrett (01:14:45.21)
It's.

Neil Barrett (01:14:50.466)
It's it that that when it came out, I didn't really think too much about it. I was like, OK, cool. That's your that's your target audience. Whatever we know. We know Canada likes box more than than the US does. Cool. Got it. And then I started thinking about it and that 30 million number is like, yeah, but the.

The PLL has been talking about how there's now 48 million lacrosse fans in the US. So like, why are you so enamored with that 30 million when you could grasp a big chunk of that 48 million? That's a bigger, I know we're talking about a CBA here and how you guys came to the table with a lower number, but that's generally a larger piece of the pie over here that's untapped.

Brandon Hooten (01:15:42.626)
Yep. And I put that in a tweet on Twitter. I said, yeah, they should be a target audience. That's their national sport. They should be a massive point of contention for you guys to be like, hey, this is our target audience for 40 million people. The problem is America has 340 million people. So.

Neil Barrett (01:15:51.472)
Sure.

Brandon Hooten (01:16:04.961)
I passed a bunch of math classes in my day and the math is mathin' to me that we should probably be marketing to the 340 million people cut that in half for adults, 100 and you know whatever million people minimum that are in sports towns that will support you like it doesn't make sense to be like well this is our target audience how about all these people down here that are willing to spend time and money to go to your events

Neil Barrett (01:16:20.432)
Well...

Neil Barrett (01:16:29.094)
To your point, the numbers that we were just talking about, which we can debate whether that number is real, but we can debate whether the 30 million Canadian lacrosse fans is a real number too, because you're telling me that there's only eight million non-lacrosse fans?

I know a lot of, I know a lot of Canadians who, know what lacrosse is more than we do, but they don't watch the NLL. They don't know what the NLL is. They don't know that these teams exist. So like this idea that everyone in Canada is a lacrosse fan is crazy, but let's just say that they were.

Brandon Hooten (01:16:55.328)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:17:04.004)
There are 38 to 40 million Canadians. There's 48 million lacrosse fans in the US. There are more US lacrosse fans than there are people in Canada. The idea that you're just like, yeah, Canada is our target audience. I don't know. If it felt.

Brandon Hooten (01:17:10.709)
Yep. Yep.

Brandon Hooten (01:17:22.401)
It just makes no sense and it comes off so out of touch to be quite frank and this is me speaking not as like a media person this is me as like a fan like I've literally gone to NLL events for 75 % of my life like literally so to sit there and then it's kind of like a slap in the face to be like well this is our target audience like what are you talking about you have cities down here that not only have shown out but you have other cities that

will show out if you just go there. Like Minnesota, incredible sports town, places like, you know, Kansas City or Nashville that don't have as many teams. They will support a team. the part of the reason Vancouver was so great the last couple of seasons was they had like college nights where the college kids would go out and go into the party zone and fill that place up. Cause it was just a place to kind of party, have some drinks, have some fun. Like you can do that in a lot of places in the States. to, to, to see that comment made.

Like I was actually pretty frustrated about that because I'm like that's it. The math doesn't math and it's almost just like we don't really care about you guys down here, which is just like, you know, we're doing a weekend show up to your events and can't get a CBA done. And now apparently we're not a target audience. So hopefully he didn't mean it as a direct shot, but that's definitely how, uh, at least the people I've talked to took it.

Neil Barrett (01:18:43.302)
Yeah, I'm going to imagine that he did not mean that as a shot, but it certainly felt that way. But it's funny.

Brandon Hooten (01:18:52.64)
And the problem too is like I defended him quite a bit over the last few months. mean talk to Kyle, he'll tell you that a lot of things the league has done felt like they're trying to push it to all Canada. And I over and over have been like well not really like this is what I think they mean whatever this and then so then to see this I was like wait like are you telling me that I've been defending this this entire time and that seems to be what you're insinuating you want to be all up in Canada like

So now it's hard for me to look back and be like, nah, he didn't mean it. Cause it's like, well, I mean, it's a pattern apparently.

Neil Barrett (01:19:29.83)
Yeah, that's I like I am glad that you said that because that was the way that I felt in the moment of hearing it. Wasn't really mad about it. I wasn't anything but my thought was, oh, we are going to end up where the NLL is all Canada and the PLL is all US and you're going to cross the border and just stay there for that season and

that's just how lacrosse is gonna be played. Again, wasn't mad about it, just was like, that's what we're setting up here, kinda to your point. I also think, I think that one of the things that we've learned over the last, especially the last two years is the hotbeds aren't riding with professional lacrosse like we think they should. And what we always end up doing is we either,

put a team in when it comes to the US and lacrosse, we either put a team in a hotbed or we put it in some like new exotic place or or where someone has money, you know, putting it at PCLC like it's crazy. Las Vegas feels crazy to me. There's all these places that we're putting it that are crazy rather than putting it in the middle places, the places where maybe the game has been around for

a decent amount of time, but there are there are like, like I think of North Carolina, we've had the game for 5060 years now, something like that. I was actually just reading.

the American game. And they were talking about the game coming to North Carolina with Willie Scroggs. I don't think he brought it there, but anyway, it's been here for 50, 60 years. They've played it up and down. And every time we put it in Charlotte, and Charlotte is not a good sports town period. Like it just isn't with the exception of Charlotte FC, which for some reason has kind of captured that area. But it's like,

Neil Barrett (01:21:38.47)
put a team in Raleigh, there are, that's where the game kind of started in our state. That's where I think it still has a very strong foothold, even though Charlotte probably is a little bit better. But I'm like, to me, there's, there's, don't take enough of those like calculated things when it comes to these teams and putting them in places where the, where it makes sense, where growth makes sense. It's, it's gradual. It's kind of the next progression. We either go,

to where it's super safe or to where we're like pushing the boundaries. Like we don't hit this middle ground. And I think it's part of the reason why it doesn't work. Like Philly already has like eight good sports teams. Like I just don't think people care about the wings as much as Kyle doesn't want to hear that as much as the Philly wings fans that are loyal and passionate and are there don't want to hear that. It's just kind of the

the situation like it's just not working. That's why we're hearing rumors that they want to quit, you know?

Brandon Hooten (01:22:43.412)
Well, what's funny is they actually have a pretty decent turnout. Which is why I'm like, you have the fans. You're making money on the people buying stuff at the stadium.

Neil Barrett (01:22:47.291)
That's fair.

Neil Barrett (01:22:57.658)
Well...

Brandon Hooten (01:22:58.218)
What's the reason in here?

Neil Barrett (01:23:00.432)
a few of the people buying stuff, they would have made so much money off of Brendan O'Neill, but they just wouldn't. They just wouldn't push him. I I wanted that retro, that gray retro Brendan O'Neill jersey. Couldn't find it anywhere.

Brandon Hooten (01:23:16.49)
Yep, yep, which is part of my I mean that's been a grab of mine with the league for quite a while and it started because they went to fanatics those couple of years and I was like well First off I as a consumer. I'm just not buying from them. Sorry, so you pushed me out and I'm a dedicated watcher viewer so You know, but then it's like all of a sudden now we move away from them But then there wasn't like a dedicated like this what we're doing and it was kind of every team for themselves and it's like, okay I'm in a good position. We're like

Neil Barrett (01:23:33.19)
You

Brandon Hooten (01:23:45.204)
We have a team store and it's like, can get my stuff here, but not every team has that. So, I mean, even on that front, it's like, not, I'm not saying to put out a bunch of like crappy, like t-shirts or whatever, like just to make money, put out quality stuff, but like, give us an opportunity to like pour into the league. Like if money is an issue, like give us an opportunity to actually be like, Hey, I want to support this team in this league. Let me grab that. Like, why am I wearing a logo hat?

Neil Barrett (01:23:50.854)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:24:14.043)
for a non-team. I don't have an NFL hat, I don't have an NBA hat, right, but I want to support the league. If the NLL put out a hat like this, I would buy it instantaneously. They don't. Like everything that has happened so far when it comes back to like the CBA and like, we don't have money for this. I'm like, well, you fumble whatever chance you had, you can be making a bunch of extra money and you're not doing it for whatever reason.

Neil Barrett (01:24:21.158)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (01:24:36.782)
Yeah, well and

I don't want to put these words in anyone else's mouth. I will say I have heard from several people that part of the reason why we don't see more of like the stars pushed is because there are people in the league who feel it's unfair that they don't have said stars. Specifically, this was said to me from several people about Brennan O'Neill, about the reason that Brennan O'Neill is not pushed more.

is because it's viewed as unfair that everyone doesn't have a Brennan O'Neil. And I'm like, yeah, but the bandits have Dane and Josh, you know, Zach Currier and Calgary, like every, every team has their own stars and you can make your own stars. Like they may not necessarily have the crossover appeal, but like,

You know.

Brandon Hooten (01:25:42.003)
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. That's actually so stupid. I could name you a star on every single team right now that you can market. Every single one.

Neil Barrett (01:25:44.484)
I agree, I thought it was dumb too.

Neil Barrett (01:25:50.47)
Well, and even if they aren't the heights of Brennan O'Neill, look at what Caitlin Clark did to the WNBA. And when she travels, the visiting team sells out. if, even if it was, even if there weren't other stars, and I'm with you, I think there are, I think you could make other stars in the league that could be that big.

I mean, even even if we look at guys that have been in the league for, know, Dane Dobie just retired, like he could have been a bigger star in that league. And I know that that seems a little crazy to like NLL diehards who, you know, live and breathe on this stuff. And they're like, Dane Dobie was a big star, but like, no, he wasn't not in the terms of what we're talking about here.

Brandon Hooten (01:26:38.963)
Like that's a dude that they should have his jersey like on a site for us to buy. He's a Hall of Famer. Like we should be able to go in and be like, I know he's retired, but hey, I want his jersey. And there's guys like that across the league. Also, a of these guys live in the market that they play in. So not only can you market them to the people online and be like, here's buy the jersey, buy whatever, but hey, now they're doing a camp. They're doing a meet and greet. You know, you could buy it in the team facility, whatever it is. So that's interesting that they're

Neil Barrett (01:26:43.588)
Yes. Yes.

Neil Barrett (01:26:47.931)
Yes.

Brandon Hooten (01:27:08.127)
I don't dis- I'm not doubting that they told you that. It's just funny that- cause it's like you- that's such a lazy approach to be like, well we don't have that.

Neil Barrett (01:27:15.546)
Yeah, when I was told it, but even before it was repeated to me from other people, my first reaction was like, there's no way there's no way you would run a professional sports league and not promote your stars. And then I started looking at it and it was like, like when Brennan O'Neill was in camp in the training camps, what, two weeks long, the wings posted, the wings posted one picture of Brennan O'Neill. One. Like, are you kidding me?

Brandon Hooten (01:27:37.823)
Something like that.

Neil Barrett (01:27:45.764)
I remember Graham Perot, Perot I think is how you say his name, he was at Wings training camp and he saw Brennan O'Neill like a mob of people surrounding a player and he was like, that's interesting. I've never seen that before. And then he tweeted like an hour later and goes, I think that was Brennan O'Neill. And it was like, yes, this is the like we were talking about with Caitlin Clark. Like this is the Brennan O'Neill effect. You have this like you need.

to capitalize on it. And again, when, when Brendan O'Neill goes to San Diego, if you have this marketable start, like that's a thing that the seals can market too, you know, it just.

Brandon Hooten (01:28:27.877)
Yep, yep. Especially, especially now like even specifically about him. Now you have Pat Capp who's his PLL teammate. The NLL does a great job acknowledging PLL events and things of that nature and their players. You could easily have a graphic that's you know something about teammates in the summer to now they're playing against each other. Like this seems like such a easy thing to do here.

Neil Barrett (01:28:51.63)
And to be fair, you don't even have to mention the PLL because I think you can you can harken back to Duke Notre Dame for that. Like, like we talk, I talk, we talk all the time. I don't think that the PLL has to mention the NLL, nor does the NLL have to mention the PLL. They're they're they're competing organizations like I I'm not saying it's right or they should or they shouldn't, but it

Brandon Hooten (01:29:00.989)
Yeah, that too. Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:29:21.816)
It is a, it's a way to go about things that I think is completely fair. So, but you don't even have to go to the PLL teammates. can, you can talk about how these dudes have played each other forever. They've, they have known each other. They played on what team 91 together, right? Like when they were 12, you know, they've known each other that long. There's a history there. They played against each other in national championships. Like you can build this thing.

and make it a bigger deal, make it something interesting, make it the Peyton Tom Brady kind of rivalry of lacrosse and sell your sport. But we don't do that in the NLF. We don't talk about individual players at all. We only talk about the teams.

Brandon Hooten (01:30:11.806)
That's.

I'll refrain. It's just... And mind you, this is like, I'm fresh right now, obviously. I still love the NLL. I'm still gonna support it. Everyone should watch it. I got a comment this week from someone that's not a nobody that essentially said beware of kind of how you're speaking about things just because you want people to always have a positive light. I agree with that. I'm also gonna call it like I see it. And right now I'm not having too much hope. I've been pretty positive about the whole CBA thing since it started.

Neil Barrett (01:30:14.566)
And we don't sell merch.

Brandon Hooten (01:30:44.615)
I'm kind of on the down slope of just like, I'm getting tired of it. So let's figure it out, please.

Neil Barrett (01:30:49.566)
I... that's really funny to hear that because I heard a rant on TikTok that was nearly identical to what you just said except it was about the CFL

and about how a very well-known broadcast person who I think had played in the CFL had basically gotten in trouble and shunned for being too negative when really he was just trying to be real. Like he wasn't bashing for the sake of bashing. He was just like legitimately, he was talking about it the way that anybody would talk about sports and

So it's funny to hear that you a basically identical conversation from someone.

Brandon Hooten (01:31:45.491)
I mean again, again, it's I understand where that person's coming from. I'm never going to reveal like who they are or anything because I get where they're coming from. But you also have to understand I'm coming at this from a perspective of literally I'm a fan. I do this for fun. So I know people think of this as like, you're a media member. Like, no, I'm just a fan who wants to see the league succeed. So when I see this type of thing happening, like I'm going to speak my mind about it in a respectful as a respectful manner as I can.

And we're just kind at that point where I'm just out of patience about it. Like we just had a draft, we should be hyping up all of our draft picks and you know, looking ahead to the season and instead we're still dealing with this. And then it comes out that they're not even talking every day. It's just like, I'm just kind of done. Like, like I told you before we hopped on, I'm just tired of having to keep up with like every single thing that's happening, like all the time. And there's never any progress it feels like. So, you know, I'll be positive, but I'm going be realistic too.

Neil Barrett (01:32:44.23)
Yeah, to your point, I think there's a way to go about criticism and talking about the negative things that are impacting the game without being critical for the sake of being critical. There are a lot of people online that talk about things and just...

never have a good thing to say, never have a constructive thing to say in their criticism. It's always this sucks, this is stupid. They're dumb. They do it horribly. This is this is way better, you whatever, whatever it is. And you should I think it's good and healthy for the NLL or the PLL or whatever it is, lacrosse in general, for us to have criticism, to have debate, to have

you know, ideas that are different and stuff. And it doesn't have to become this like spiteful, hateful thing. Like you said, you're a fan, you care about the sport and you want to see it succeed. And it doesn't have to be this like nasty, I'm right, you're wrong kind of idiotic. Idioticy. Wow. Nice. Yeah. Just inventing words over here. No big deal. Anyway, let's let's

Brandon Hooten (01:33:56.637)
So no one.

Neil Barrett (01:34:03.632)
have a more fun conversation. This I did not prepare you for because I wanted I wanted a live reaction here. I was looking at the draft this week and it dawned on me and I'm not making an announcement. I'm not saying this is the case, but it dawned on me that I might actually have an NLL team that I have.

been ignoring, trying not to make my NLL team. And it has nothing to do with this draft. This has been a truth, I think, for the last few years, but it's the Toronto Rock.

Neil Barrett (01:34:49.99)
It was worth it just for that face right there.

Brandon Hooten (01:34:54.599)
There's no shot you're being serious. There's actually no shot.

Neil Barrett (01:34:57.222)
I promise you, I am being 100 % serious. From the moment I was like, I need to pick a team and get in, I just immediately crossed off Canadian teams. I was like, no Canadian teams. I want a US based NLL team.

Brandon Hooten (01:35:00.251)
No you're not. No you're not. No you're not. No you're not.

Brandon Hooten (01:35:16.807)
Boy do I have some news for you.

Neil Barrett (01:35:19.396)
What's that?

Brandon Hooten (01:35:20.199)
Toronto's in Canada.

Neil Barrett (01:35:22.686)
No, I know. I know. That's why I like I like blackballed them in my mind. But there's something about the like history, the jerseys, like, I don't know. They always if you if you go back every year for the last three years at the start of the NLL season, I always I never make it all the way through all the teams, but I always try and make a graphic for every team. The Toronto Rock is one of the first ones I do.

every year. Like, just, I there's something about them that like, I just can't get rid of, but I have just written off because they were a Canadian team. And I was like, no Canadian teams. It's the same reason why I love Jesse King. And I really thought about the Roughnecks as well. I was like, but the whole time I was just like, no Canadian teams, no Canadian teams. And then I've never really been all that into the rush. But I like we talked about earlier, they have been picking

Duke player after Duke player after Duke player. And I'm like, do I like do I like the rush? And I I've come around to it ain't the rush. It ain't even with all the Duke players. It ain't the rush. Sorry, Saskatchewan. I know you guys tweeted at me earlier this week. I apologize. It ain't yeah, it ain't y'all.

Brandon Hooten (01:36:40.891)
They have a good social team by the way. Shout out to them. Very good.

Neil Barrett (01:36:43.556)
They do have a good social team and they were very quick when I tweeted out, like, what are you guys trying to make me a fan? They were like, almost immediately they were like, come on, come on.

Brandon Hooten (01:36:53.307)
Yeah, they're one of my favorite follows in sports, for sure.

Neil Barrett (01:36:56.72)
They are they are a great follow. I will give you that they are a great follow. And it's ironic because Toronto I think is such like like we have just spent entirely too long talking about headed by I just am not a fan of that front office clearly. But you know I don't know. Again I'm not I'm not announcing it. I'm not I'm not.

Brandon Hooten (01:37:22.29)
No, that sounded like an announcement. That sure sounded like an announcement.

Neil Barrett (01:37:25.815)
No, no, I'm not Kyle. I'm not putting on the hat. I'm not picking my team here and now. Because here's because

Brandon Hooten (01:37:32.381)
And you could have picked a team that beats them every year, but...

Neil Barrett (01:37:35.942)
Because here's the thing. Here's the thing. For me, there is a part of me that has to get into it. I have to feel something with this team before I can really claim their mind. And ironically, it's going to take some winning. I'm not saying they got to win a championship, but they can't be what they were last year and have me hop on. I'm not going to ever feel anything if they're just miserable.

Neil Barrett (01:38:05.83)
If they win, I don't know, I don't even know. I don't even remember what they finished like. Do you remember what they finished as you actually looked that up?

Brandon Hooten (01:38:12.572)
I think five and thirteen I want to say it was

Neil Barrett (01:38:16.665)
I think if they can win, I want to say if they can win 10 games, think that could be enough to kind of pull me in.

Neil Barrett (01:38:27.918)
What?

Brandon Hooten (01:38:29.479)
To each their own. To each their own.

Neil Barrett (01:38:31.918)
Listen, I don't have a hometown team. I don't even have like I'm in New England now. There's not even a New England team. I'm not jumping on the belt, the Buffalo bandwagon. I'm not doing it. Also, about the time I jump on it, know, Dane and Josh are going to retire and they're going to be miserable anyway, so I'm not doing it. I I was really partial to Rochester.

I died heads for Dan Loomis. of my one of my good friends was the Hawks trooper. was like one of the you know, this rush has the Hulk guy. He was like their version of that. He was like the super fan who dresses up. So I was kind of partial to them for a little while, but since the move in the rebrand, like, I don't know, I just haven't it. I haven't clicked with me as as much. I'm not going for Halifax, you know, I.

Brandon Hooten (01:39:09.009)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:39:27.419)
I'd respect it more if you went for Halifax.

Brandon Hooten (01:39:32.155)
great color scheme, some great players, PLL players.

Neil Barrett (01:39:37.382)
Mm-mm.

Who's on their roster right now? It's what, Graham?

Brandon Hooten (01:39:42.183)
Graham Hasek, Ryan Tarifenko,

Neil Barrett (01:39:47.649)
do nothing for me.

Brandon Hooten (01:39:50.141)
Well that's just wrong, first off.

Neil Barrett (01:39:52.846)
Listen, they're great. They're great, great players that they just I just

Brandon Hooten (01:39:57.359)
Look, all I'm hearing is you have no solid reason for picking the rock.

Neil Barrett (01:40:02.106)
I do, uniforms, uniforms. Listen, the Nike ad that they tweeted out for CJ, I was like, everything about this is speaking to me right now. Everything about it. They also have Tom Schreiber, like, come on, we can't. Well, yeah, for now.

Brandon Hooten (01:40:03.076)
What is it? my goodness, my...

Brandon Hooten (01:40:20.892)
For now, for now. He'll be in Colorado at the end of next year.

Neil Barrett (01:40:26.662)
He might he might be in Colorado come December with if with his injury

Brandon Hooten (01:40:30.394)
Of I said that last year. I thought for sure he was getting traded just at the deadline. And it didn't happen. but... Okay, well hey, hey, if you have a team and it gets you more into the league, then I'm all for it. I actually don't hate the Rock, so, you know, it's fine.

Neil Barrett (01:40:35.686)
You

Neil Barrett (01:40:39.227)
You know.

Neil Barrett (01:40:44.858)
Yeah, what's like a service?

Well, like I said, we'll see. We'll see. Like I have to kind of live and breathe with them for a while before that. They can really be my team.

Brandon Hooten (01:40:54.842)
Well, you know, there are a couple teams that I won't accept you being fans of so and you didn't hit them so we're good

Neil Barrett (01:41:01.734)
we gotta have this conversation offline.

Brandon Hooten (01:41:05.276)
Oh no no no, I don't have any bad blood with them necessarily, I just... As a man with fan, I don't drive with them, so if you're a fan of them... I can't, you know, that's thing, I can't happen.

You know, the Rock, the Rock are far enough away, like they're over there, they're in the east, you know, it's alright.

Neil Barrett (01:41:23.494)
I feel like I don't have the words to do it right now, but I feel like at some point I'm gonna have to explain how much like colors and uniforms and stuff like speak to me. Like Lyle Thompson's probably my favorite player of the last, you know, 15, 20 years, you know, certainly since Mikey Powell quit playing. And I have never even considered

The Swarm. Never. There's just nothing about them appeals to me. At all.

I don't know. The teams that I like the most subconsciously and without like any note with no sporting merit to them are Toronto, Vancouver, which I don't know. I just don't have any. don't know. There's something about Vancouver that like I'm like, dude, I love the way their uniforms look. I like their like so much about them. They just don't stick with me,

Neil Barrett (01:42:35.354)
Calgary could probably be in it if not for that blue turf.

Brandon Hooten (01:42:38.97)
Well, I don't know if they're gonna have that anymore actually. Cause I saw that turf is now in another arena up there. I just don't know if there's two of them or if that's the one. But we'll see.

Neil Barrett (01:42:41.272)
I don't know if they're going to either and that might be an issue.

Neil Barrett (01:42:46.938)
Yes, I saw that.

Yeah, or or that was their they're changing some element of it. And so they just got rid of the old one or whatever. Yeah, you never know. But all right. That was my that was my admission. Well, we can we can move on to the last little thing we got to hit. And that is that is the Man Cup. Like I said earlier in the intro, we we never doubted the Chiefs, right? We always knew they were going to win.

Brandon Hooten (01:42:55.313)
Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:43:15.76)
Yeah, I think most of Canada did.

Neil Barrett (01:43:22.032)
Say that again. Sorry. It broke up.

Brandon Hooten (01:43:24.008)
I was saying I think most of Canada did as well It was kind of Sam and Billy's had a good team But as soon as it went seven, it was I knew it was over like it's Especially like will Malcolm went down and you know The Chiefs had some guys go down too, but the Chiefs are already so good that it was and then you look at who they added Don't get me wrong. I love Elijah Gash Eli Gobrecht great player, but like the Chiefs added Graham Hasek

Neil Barrett (01:43:37.648)
Listen.

Yes.

Neil Barrett (01:43:43.686)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:43:55.452)
You they already were a powerhouse and then you add Graham to that. It's just like, yeah. Even when Josh Byrne went down, I was like, it doesn't even matter. Like they, they have enough guys that, you know, and the Salmon Belly's Chiller credit made it interesting game seven. They're down five one came back and tied it at six, but then it was just all Chiefs the rest of the way. So three in a row that makes a six in a row championship wise for John's Varus, I believe if I'm doing that correctly.

Neil Barrett (01:44:23.556)
Yeah, John and Dane and Josh and yeah, that

Brandon Hooten (01:44:24.84)
Dane, think, I think, is this Dane's third in a row or is this his second in a row? Technically, I think it's his third because he came in at the end, helped him win the man, then played a full last year and a full this year. So yeah, he get three in a row. This is Josh Burns first man cup. but yeah, I mean, I believe Ian McKay's first as well. I could be wrong, but I believe it's his first, but yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:44:38.896)
Yeah.

That's right, that's right.

Neil Barrett (01:44:49.476)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm going to say when they were down to, I was like, all right.

Brandon Hooten (01:44:57.402)
It was surprising, but it was still like... 7 game series.

Neil Barrett (01:45:01.69)
There's someone who's been commenting on our episodes on YouTube. I don't know if you have seen this. It's our short. We had a short about the Chief's roster and we were talking about how is this allowed, you know, basically. And they went off on it.

Brandon Hooten (01:45:09.445)
I have not.

Neil Barrett (01:45:28.962)
We only have a problem with it now that it's a native team. That was one of the things that was said. And I was like, are you kidding me? No, no, it has absolutely zero to do with it being a native team. would, I would say the same thing about any team. It just happens to be the native team doing it right now. And

Brandon Hooten (01:45:33.21)
What? What?

Brandon Hooten (01:45:44.704)
Right. Also, also, this is the only team that we've ever known about that we were caught as in of that's doing it. So like what if New West was doing it, we'd say the same thing. It just so happens that like you said, that's who we see.

Neil Barrett (01:45:50.266)
Right.

Right.

And to be fair, New West is doing it, just not to the degree that they're doing it.

Brandon Hooten (01:46:03.348)
Yeah, and and I think we've been Fairly clear across the plot all of our platforms that like the way that that works is super sketch in and of itself I mean I forgot to even mention the salmon bellies even when added Owen Grant I know he's technically like he's they own his rights and whatever but like I don't understand the whole purpose of how teams can just Go add random people even even like Elijah Gash came from the team that lost to New West like how was so

Neil Barrett (01:46:11.897)
Yes, yes.

Neil Barrett (01:46:16.774)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Barrett (01:46:28.41)
Hmm? Hmm? Yup.

Brandon Hooten (01:46:31.374)
That comment I'm not even gonna pay any attention because like that's ridiculous. I could go on rents for days about How that system works? That doesn't make sense

Neil Barrett (01:46:39.064)
Yeah, yes. And again, New West is doing it like we can talk about them. I'm more than happy to talk about them, but they are not the one doing it the most like once we take care of this one, then yeah, we can talk about this one too. I'm more than happy. I'm more than happy to talk about anyone and everyone who's doing it because Victoria is doing it like everybody's doing it. They just aren't doing it to this level.

Brandon Hooten (01:46:46.694)
huh.

Brandon Hooten (01:46:55.149)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Hooten (01:47:02.971)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Hooten (01:47:07.132)
Also, one of them is pulling a bunch of PLL All-Stars out, one of them's not. So naturally, because we have a lot of field listeners, we're going to touch on that occurring. Like, I don't understand the problem here.

Neil Barrett (01:47:19.91)
Yes. Yes. Yes. And and again, we're talking about New West Victoria, who are doing it with four or five, six guys. The Chiefs are doing it with the like the entire roster from top to bottom is it are these guys that they are at least.

on some level paying to be there in an amateur league. And I know we all know it isn't, but it is technically still an amateur league without any rules, without any regulations. It's like, hey, we can pay Lyle 500,000, you know.

Tyson Bell, he gets five grand a game. Like there's, literally no rules, no regulations. We can do whatever we want. We can pay who we want, what we want. We can pay someone no money. We can, this guy could get a ham sandwich and this guy could get a million dollars. Like it, it doesn't matter. There's no rules. And that's the, that's the conversation that we're having. It's not necessarily about who is doing it. It's about what is being done.

Brandon Hooten (01:48:28.325)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:48:29.4)
I saw a tweet earlier today where someone was like, they need to just set up a salary cap. need to, they can regulate it. we'll never, we will never get every single dollar paid under the table out of the game. Like it just won't happen. I don't know how much you have been paying attention, but we just had the story from Pablo Torre about Kawhi Leonard's little side deal with the Clippers. Like you'll never be able to.

Brandon Hooten (01:48:53.69)
Yep.

Brandon Hooten (01:48:57.711)
And he was already making millions of dollars, like...

Neil Barrett (01:48:59.896)
Yes, yes, and you'll never be able to get it all the way. You'll never get every single dollar from out from under the table. Like it won't happen. But at least at least once you lay out the rules, you can regulate things you can there's a method for punishing this behavior. There's a method for investigating this kind of behavior and stuff. It's just it's insane that that

Those are the rules. It's insane that like you're saying we can play a whole season and then you can go raid the teams that you beat to then go play the man like the the part that really bugs me about it is like what if what if you were that dude who was like 16 on the depth chart?

all season and just like on the fringes of the team, but you were there, you played it, you were at every game, you were at every practice, you were there. And then the man cup comes and it's like, Graham Hossack's coming in, you gotta, you gotta go. And it's like, I want the man cup too. Like, what are we doing here?

Brandon Hooten (01:49:58.021)
Well, I mean, New West cut two players to make room for guys and I'm like, these guys are here with you the entire year. So like...

Neil Barrett (01:50:02.181)
Right.

Neil Barrett (01:50:06.01)
Yep. well, and what's crazy to me is something like that happens and every fiber in my bone would be like, well, screw you. I'm out. I'm not coming back next year, but they come back next year. I'm like, what, what are we doing?

Brandon Hooten (01:50:23.006)
Yep. Yep. All this to say, it does not matter who's doing it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about whatever is the most prevalent. And if anyone has rules that they feel like it would help us dumb Americans understand that system, feel free to drop them in the comments. Like, we're not afraid to be like, oh, we didn't realize this was in place or whatever. I know Canada, Lacrosse told me a couple of weeks ago that there is some type of limit on NLL players of some kind. But like,

I shouldn't say Canada lacrosse. It was a Canadian lacrosse account. but I have not seen that in action. So if anyone has clarification, I'm more than, well, I'm more than happy to be, you know, taught about this, but we're still going to talk about it when it comes up and it doesn't matter who's doing it. So.

Neil Barrett (01:51:10.458)
Hold on, there's no way.

Brandon Hooten (01:51:16.571)
I can only speak to what I was told because I asked about it.

But I'd have to go back, mean, we're talking weeks at this point to go back and find it, but...

Neil Barrett (01:51:23.07)
Jesus, that is not the actual...

Neil Barrett (01:51:36.134)
I'm looking at, I want to look up the man.

Neil Barrett (01:51:44.646)
This is super fun for all of the people who are listening at home. No, we won't.

Brandon Hooten (01:51:49.817)
We'll cut it out.

Brandon Hooten (01:51:54.299)
Just gonna let it sit here.

Neil Barrett (01:51:56.506)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:52:02.298)
But first of all, like how big is this roster?

Brandon Hooten (01:52:06.166)
It's huge.

Neil Barrett (01:52:07.718)
It's huge. And so it's like, even if you put in a roster limit of like, oh, you have to have X amount of guys that aren't NLL players. It's like we just balloon the roster and, you know, but I'm looking at it. Let's see.

Brandon Hooten (01:52:25.711)
Yeah.

Neil Barrett (01:52:29.358)
Here's, here's who I know plays in the NLL. And there's a few of these names that could be NLL players that I don't know. Tyson Bell, Brendan Bomberry, Josh Byrne, Littrell Harris, Shane Jackson, Cody Jamison, Brad Cree.

Travis Longboat, I'm pretty sure. Ian McKay, Matt Mariner, Eli McLaughlin, Steve Priolo, Dane Smith, Ryan Smith, Randy Stotz, Larsen Sundown, Dawson Theed, Lyle Thompson, Noncon Thompson, Warren Hill, Doug Jamison.

Brandon Hooten (01:53:03.34)
That's 19, 20, 21. That's not even including the Graham Hasek, the Dylan Ward. But yeah, so this was several weeks ago now. The official Canadian lacrosse league account, I asked them a question about would there be a limit on NLL guys moving forward or whatever. And they said, current understanding is there's already a limit in place.

Neil Barrett (01:53:12.238)
Nope. Nope.

Neil Barrett (01:53:30.822)
What's the limit?

Brandon Hooten (01:53:31.16)
That doesn't sound like a limit, but...

And I'm not saying they're wrong, there are good accounts to follow, I'm just saying that's what I was told, so I'm not totally sure how it's enforced anyway.

Neil Barrett (01:53:46.086)
And again, there's several of these.

Brandon Hooten (01:53:46.744)
So again, if someone wants to educate us, feel free.

Neil Barrett (01:53:49.99)
There's several of these names that like, again, could still be NLL players that I don't know. Blaise Becker, is that an NLL player? I don't know. I don't know him to be one, I'm not the expert here. But yeah, it's just like, what do mean there's a limit?

Brandon Hooten (01:53:57.882)
I don't think so.

Neil Barrett (01:54:14.858)
Anyway, on on that bombshell, we are going to get out of here next week. Brandon and I are going to be making some way too early predictions for next season, as well as talking about some changes that we would like to see in the sport of lacrosse as a whole. If you are a New York Times bestseller, you will definitely want to bring.

your notepad for that episode. I'm sure that there will be lots of notes to take down for safekeeping. But if you enjoyed today's show or any other show for that matter, don't forget to leave a review of the pod. Give this episode a like a follow all of those things. Leave comments or follow us on social media at run out pod on

Twitter and Instagram or leave us a comment. Let us know what you think of the show. All that all that stuff. You can also interact with me at I am Neil Barrett on Instagram and Twitter or Brandon at at hoot sports media on Twitter or Instagram. All of it really helps us get into people's algorithms. Algorithms. That's correct. Yeah. And helps the show grow. Plus, we love interacting.

with you guys and want to keep growing out this community. But like I said, that is it for today. So until next time, we'll catch you guys in the comments.